I went off about this in Shakka's Income Tax thread, and quickly realized just how far off I was going. So I'll post my rant that I cut out of there right here.....


The Republicans brilliantly spinned their latest item – the Estate Tax item into a negative phrase, the “Death Tax”. They’ve also falsely claimed and have largely gotten away with stating this tax hurts the majority of small farms and small businesses. Leave it up to that darned liberal media for not looking into this matter much further and realizing just how bogus such a claim can be:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200504140006

And, of course, to make things more rosy, you have the Right Wing Noise Machine pundits yelling, “Why do liberals hate the rich?”, which once again successfully frames the issue exactly the way the Republicans want it.

And was it a success of that on public opinion? Absofuckinglutely! Half the country was falsely led to believe that "most families" pay the estate tax, and that 7 out of 10 supporters of rolling back this tax cut believed they will be directly affected:

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/po...axes_survey.pdf

Hats off, once again, to the unified Republican Noise Machine!

So what is the issue exactly to the Democrats on this particular tax? The issue, once again, is the fiscally inept Republicans and their fucking irresponsibility with our fucking checkbooks. The issue is the fucking deficit which the Republicans love to merely handwave away as they borrow and borrow their way into that dark, black, rabbit hole. Quite honestly I wouldn’t fucking care if they fall down that hole by themselves – the problem is they’re roping us all with them. This estate tax. though it only affects the very small minority who make $1.5 million annually, generates a pretty good portion of revenue for our Treasury. If we repeal this tax like the House wants to do by successfully voting for the repeal this week, over the next decade we would be losing approximately $1 trillion in lost revenue (with interest combined):

http://www.cbpp.org/4-12-05tax.htm

Now perhaps it’s not entirely fair to shoulder all the blame on the Republicans for this particular tax repeal. To their idiotic credit, 31 House Democrats also jumped into the rabbit hole too. Even more sadly, 17 of those 31 Democrats have districts whose median family income is below $36,000, so go figure:

http://www.techpolitics.org/congres...&sort_order=asc

But Josh Marshall also makes a very cogent point about Republican rationality on this tax as it relates to their push for Social Security privatization and money in the Treasury. I can’t help but post it:

quote:

There's no hidden complexity here. It's a zero-sum game. They say Social Security is in trouble because we don't have enough dollars to make good on the Trust Fund (which today holds roughly $1.7 trillion in Treasury notes). And here they are voting to take a trillion more dollars off the table. In other words, they could not care less about Social Security and everything they say on the subject is a joke. If someone tells you that at least the Republicans have a plan and the Democrats don't, laugh in their faces. The Republican agenda (the actual bills they are passing right now) is to keep weakening Social Security at every opportunity, just like they're doing today. The most constructive thing anyone can do under present circumstances to protect Social Security, the only 'plan' that isn't a joke, is to oppose the Republican agenda in Congress, to stand up and say "do no more harm." http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/005431.php

Republicans really making sense, huh?

If by now I’ve successfully lost you by now, let me reiterate and clarify my point – again it’s not that I don’t disagree entirely that taxes suck. And I also don’t disagree entirely with the thought of repealing some taxes here and there IF the private sector could perform a better job on a given area. However, the is most certainly a time and place for everything. With our looming deficits that Republicans merely ignore, with the fiscally irresponsible spending that this President and his neocon cronies in office and in Congress can’t seem to shy away from, with an ongoing war that we continue to pump more and more taxpayer money into as well as a likely future invasion to pay for (I’ll get into that in another thread), is this really a good time for MORE tax cuts of any kind, especially to those who’ve historically saved their money rather than spend it to help boost the economy?

I hardly think so folks. No fucking way.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Canada doesn't have an estate tax.

___________________
Nathan Fake - Outhouse (Valentino Kanzyani Remix) || ID PLZ! PVD ID!!!
Disco and classical had sex while watching a sci-fi movie. Their child: trance.

While I disagree with the estate tax in principle, I think it's repeal should not have been such a high priority with the GOP. If they were going to make any of the tax cuts permanent, they should have started with the 10% and 15% income tax brackets, and by making the increased IRA/401k limits permanent. This would have helped everyone, rich and poor alike.

The fact is that the estate tax is probably one of the biggest job killers the country has ever had. What happens is that almost no small businesses survive 2 generations. The business is doing well and paying its taxes and having quite a few employees, then the owner dies and all the assets are taxed at 45 percent. Almost know business can afford that so they liquidate everything. The business is finished and all the employees are out of a job.

As a very strong believer in supply side economics, I very much disagree with your premise

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by denny_shibby The fact is that the estate tax is probably one of the biggest job killers the country has ever had. What happens is that almost no small businesses survive 2 generations. The business is doing well and paying its taxes and having quite a few employees, then the owner dies and all the assets are taxed at 45 percent. Almost know business can afford that so they liquidate everything. The business is finished and all the employees are out of a job.

Maybe these guys should reorganize their corporate structure to better reflect the fact that it is a self contained entity...

___________________
"You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are." - Colonel Adolphus Busch

Major Johnson - February Progressive Mix

Download Other Mixes

quote:

Originally posted by denny_shibby The fact is that the estate tax is probably one of the biggest job killers the country has ever had. What happens is that almost no small businesses survive 2 generations. The business is doing well and paying its taxes and having quite a few employees, then the owner dies and all the assets are taxed at 45 percent. Almost know business can afford that so they liquidate everything. The business is finished and all the employees are out of a job.

Aside of what auujay rightly pointed out, I'm wondering if you'll ever demonstrate any statistics to support your claims. The estate tax being one of the biggest job killers ever? Evidence, please.

Out of the some 18,500 people affected by the estate tax, only 440 of them will be estates half or more of the assets are farms or family-owned businesses:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/Uplo...sOptions_10.pdf

And the article further explains that the revenue generated from these 440 farms and businesses only make up about 5.6% of the total estate tax revenue in '04.

And furthermore, from the NYTimes:

quote:

"Even one of the leading advocates for repeal of estate taxes, the American Farm Bureau Federation, said it could not cite a single example of a farm lost because of estate taxes." http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0408-02.htm

Do you fucking read anything people post? As a self-proclaimed economist and libertarian, I would surely hope you check your sources and figures a bit more often.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

all inheritance should be eliminated. any property of the deceased should pass to the state.

___________________
UnauthorizedTranceAddict Youtube Channel where I post older mixes from the TA DJ Promotion Forum

My mixes:

Still up:1:2

Down:3:4:5

quote:

Originally posted by Spacey Orange all inheritance should be eliminated. any property of the deceased should pass to the state.

sarcasm?

Something like 75 percent of all small businesses don't survive the second generation because of estate tax. This one I am sure on percentage, 86 percent dont survive the 3rd generation(C-Span). The companies that are always hit are small businesses, because of the estate tax small businesses never can grow enough to become national companies to compete with corporations. The estate tax prevents investment from small business owners into their own companies more than any other single catalyst(C-Span). The estate tax is a job killer and morally wrong.

What do you mean you are against the premise, Angel? Explain.

In the debate over the estate tax even the liberals, admitted that their constituant farmer and small business owners were yelling at them about the estate tax.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka sarcasm?

nope. eliminating inheritance would encourage gift-giving (a non-taxable event) and might motivate some people to earn a living and not wait for their next of kin to die.

i think it would be good public policy.


EDIT

think about the postive consequences. i doubt that such a policy would ever be adopted tho.

___________________
UnauthorizedTranceAddict Youtube Channel where I post older mixes from the TA DJ Promotion Forum

My mixes:

Still up:1:2

Down:3:4:5

quote:

Originally posted by Spacey Orange nope. eliminating inheritance would encourage gift-giving (a non-taxable event) and might motivate some people to earn a living and not wait for their next of kin to die. i think it would be good public policy. EDIT think about the postive consequences. i doubt that such a policy would ever be adopted tho.

The positive consequences of turning over an inordinately large amount of assets to the government? Just give them massive amounts of propery upon a person's death? Aside from removing any and every motivation for a person to work hard so his/her family will be taken care of after he/she dies, let alone the implications that could happen in the event that a corrupt government could just kill a person if they wanted to seize his/her property, let alone the fact that you have just shit all over imminent domain, a huge tenant of our constitution... Private property rights are part of the foundation of American society. To say that the government should have its mighty hand in the pot before a person's heirs see anything is truly disturbing. Sorry, I just don't think I could ever stomach that. Your idea sounds rather communistic and authoritative. I fail to see any positive implications other than those dirty, rotten evil "rich" people are your most likely target.

I doubt it would ever be adopted either.