quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Just a terrific economic recovery all around, ain't it?

it is for those that choose to help themselves.

Are you seriously?

Listen, I am a libertarian too (as I believe you are). I beleive in individual responsibility, something that is nto stressed enough in a land that was founded on it. Now, that being said. when an economy has been as depressed as it has over the course of the past couple of years, people can't just be like 'You know... I really have been a lazy sack of shit. All the jobs are hiring and I just have been to busy smoking the refer and collecting welfare to do something about it. Well enough is enough I'm going out there and gett a job.' Only there's one problem for Johnny Tryhard. NOBODY IS HIRING. In fact, if he did work hard to get a job say at GM or Boeing in the past year, I bet you could find Johnny's ass back on the streets. Jobs aren't just open to everybody that wants them, and those that have them aren't secure. Certainly not with the economy we have had, and will continue to have until someone decides to make some fuckign changes. How about we stop pumping billions into the sands of Iraq and worry about ourselves first. I honestly am getting fired up right now. So I will leave.

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quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo it is for those that choose to help themselves.

Ahh yes, the wonderful "you choose to be poor" philosophy.

Is this really your belief that individuals in poverty choose the live the way they do, and that, by and large, they can actually "choose" to live better, simply because of those wonderful GOP few and far between cases like Alberto Gonzales?

Or maybe, just maybe it's not quite as easy to get out of poverty as one thinks, especially when gov't programs continue to get slashed right in front of them?

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I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

if there are more poor in america, then it means that the bush economic plan is working as intended.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo it is for those that choose to help themselves.

maybe god just hates them.

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quote:

Originally posted by kush paintings Are you seriously? Listen, I am a libertarian too (as I believe you are). I beleive in individual responsibility, something that is nto stressed enough in a land that was founded on it. Now, that being said. when an economy has been as depressed as it has over the course of the past couple of years, people can't just be like 'You know... I really have been a lazy sack of shit. All the jobs are hiring and I just have been to busy smoking the refer and collecting welfare to do something about it. Well enough is enough I'm going out there and gett a job.' Only there's one problem for Johnny Tryhard. NOBODY IS HIRING. In fact, if he did work hard to get a job say at GM or Boeing in the past year, I bet you could find Johnny's ass back on the streets. Jobs aren't just open to everybody that wants them, and those that have them aren't secure. Certainly not with the economy we have had, and will continue to have until someone decides to make some fuckign changes. How about we stop pumping billions into the sands of Iraq and worry about ourselves first. I honestly am getting fired up right now. So I will leave.

okay. it's all Bush's GOP's fault then, like Opus is impying. right Mr. Libertarian?

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Ahh yes, the wonderful "you choose to be poor" philosophy. Is this really your belief that individuals in poverty choose the live the way they do, and that, by and large, they can actually "choose" to live better, simply because of those wonderful GOP few and far between cases like Alberto Gonzales? Or maybe, just maybe it's not quite as easy to get out of poverty as one thinks, especially when gov't programs continue to get slashed right in front of them?

what i said still stands. "It is for those that help themselves."

gimme a minute...

All people All families
________________________________ ________________________________
Below poverty level Below poverty level
______________________ ______________________
Year Total Number Percent Total Number Percent
____________________________________________________________________________
ALL RACES
2004...... 290,605 36,997 12.7 241,153 26,564 11.0
2003...... 287,699 35,861 12.5 238,903 25,684 10.8
2002...... 285,317 34,570 12.1 236,921 24,534 10.4
2001...... 281,475 32,907 11.7 233,911 23,215 9.9
2000 12/.. 278,944 31,581 11.3 231,909 22,347 9.6
1999 11/.. 276,208 32,791 11.9 230,789 23,830 10.3
1998...... 271,059 34,476 12.7 227,229 25,370 11.2
1997...... 268,480 35,574 13.3 225,369 26,217 11.6
1996...... 266,218 36,529 13.7 223,955 27,376 12.2
1995...... 263,733 36,425 13.8 222,792 27,501 12.3
1994...... 261,616 38,059 14.5 221,430 28,985 13.1
1993 10/.. 259,278 39,265 15.1 219,489 29,927 13.6
1992 9/... 256,549 38,014 14.8 217,936 28,961 13.3
1991 8/... 251,192 35,708 14.2 212,723 27,143 12.8
1990...... 248,644 33,585 13.5 210,967 25,232 12.0
1989...... 245,992 31,528 12.8 209,515 24,066 11.5
1988...... 243,530 31,745 13.0 208,056 24,048 11.6
1987 7/... 240,982 32,221 13.4 206,877 24,725 12.0
1986...... 238,554 32,370 13.6 205,459 24,754 12.0
1985 ..... 236,594 33,064 14.0 203,963 25,729 12.6
1984...... 233,816 33,700 14.4 202,288 26,458 13.1
1983 6/... 231,700 35,303 15.2 201,338 27,933 13.9
1982...... 229,412 34,398 15.0 200,385 27,349 13.6
1981 5/... 227,157 31,822 14.0 198,541 24,850 12.5
1980...... 225,027 29,272 13.0 196,963 22,601 11.5
1979 4/... 222,903 26,072 11.7 195,860 19,964 10.2
1978...... 215,656 24,497 11.4 191,071 19,062 10.0
1977...... 213,867 24,720 11.6 190,757 19,505 10.2
1976...... 212,303 24,975 11.8 190,844 19,632 10.3
1975...... 210,864 25,877 12.3 190,630 20,789 10.9
1974 3/... 209,362 23,370 11.2 190,436 18,817 9.9
1973...... 207,621 22,973 11.1 189,361 18,299 9.7
1972...... 206,004 24,460 11.9 189,193 19,577 10.3
1971 2/... 204,554 25,559 12.5 188,242 20,405 10.8
1970...... 202,183 25,420 12.6 186,692 20,330 10.9
1969...... 199,517 24,147 12.1 184,891 19,175 10.4
1968...... 197,628 25,389 12.8 183,825 20,695 11.3
1967 1/... 195,672 27,769 14.2 182,558 22,771 12.5
1966...... 193,388 28,510 14.7 181,117 23,809 13.1
1965...... 191,413 33,185 17.3 179,281 28,358 15.8
1964...... 189,710 36,055 19.0 177,653 30,912 17.4
1963...... 187,258 36,436 19.5 176,076 31,498 17.9
1962...... 184,276 38,625 21.0 173,263 33,623 19.4
1961...... 181,277 39,628 21.9 170,131 34,509 20.3
1960...... 179,503 39,851 22.2 168,615 34,925 20.7
1959...... 176,557 39,490 22.4 165,858 34,562 20.8

well damit you people dont deserve any better. wasnt like we woted for him. you got him for at least 3 more years. Good luck

If there were an average-GDP-paid job for every person in America then everybody could get one. There isn't tho

Well you see there are several reasons as to why the poverty rate has risen. I will point out the ones I believe are the major ones. Outsourcing: More and more factory jobs are being exported to another country where wages are less. So the people get laid off they don't have work anymore and searching for a similar job is more difficult as there are fewer factories in the US. There used to be a time when exports were 30% of the worlds total came from the US; now however it is only 15%. This is due to as what I said outsourcing and globalization. The second one is education. Americans simply put are a stupid bunch when it comes to math, science, geography and the world around them. We must change education to remain competitive in the world market. More Americans are going to have to start majoring in difficult majors instead of wasting their time majoring in communications. Well there are more majors that are just a joke but I won't bother mentioning them. Well actually the real problem is that you have a bunch of people wanting to take the easy way and than expect to make big bucks. Blaming this on Bush alone is not his fault; people are going to have to start making better decisions if they wish to remain having the same lifestyle they enjoy now.

quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid Well you see there are several reasons as to why the poverty rate has risen. I will point out the ones I believe are the major ones. Outsourcing: More and more factory jobs are being exported to another country where wages are less. So the people get laid off they don't have work anymore and searching for a similar job is more difficult as there are fewer factories in the US. There used to be a time when exports were 30% of the worlds total came from the US; now however it is only 15%. This is due to as what I said outsourcing and globalization. The second one is education. Americans simply put are a stupid bunch when it comes to math, science, geography and the world around them. We must change education to remain competitive in the world market. More Americans are going to have to start majoring in difficult majors instead of wasting their time majoring in communications. Well there are more majors that are just a joke but I won't bother mentioning them. Well actually the real problem is that you have a bunch of people wanting to take the easy way and than expect to make big bucks. Blaming this on Bush alone is not his fault; people are going to have to start making better decisions if they wish to remain having the same lifestyle they enjoy now.

I'm not too sure that your point on outsourcing and globalisation creates high poverty rates holds enough ground. Both globalisation and outsourcing has occured for decades, and poverty rates have fluctuated autonomously from such trends... actually, taking the data from Q5echo's post suggests that poverty rates have dropped by 50% since the 60's, regardless of the fact that globalisation has been a telling factor since then.
Just looking at the data I can see that the overall rate seems to follow the natural fluctuations of the business cycle. When the economy was in recession (ie. 1983) we see poverty rates spike up a bit for a year or two.
Plus, having less exports and more imports isnt necessarily a bad thing as many people are led to believe. Many imports become input factors of production in the local economy, thus reducing our costs and allowing us to make better profits (leading to more jobs etc) I mean, my girlfriend works in retail, and I would bet my bottom dollar that they wouldnt be able to afford her services if it werent for the fact that the clothes she sells comes from cheaparse China. Generally speaking, you'll see that booming economies have comparartively higher rates of imports to exports.
I dunno.. I'd have to think about it a little longer, but I'm fairly sure that long-term poverty trends have little to do with globalisation and the such.

However, I do agree with you on your second point about education. I think that people always tend to underestimate the importance of education and its implications on a society's longterm prospects. Definately the more the better.

Look, it does come down to leadership. The government is responsible for sound fiscal management (which Bush certainly has failed to achieve) but there is also much more to it than meets the eye.

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