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CHRles
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Nashville
With Regards To Saudi Arabia

The following post contains my views and theories, which while I can't support via sources, seem to make logical sense to me...

Saudi Arabia has long been known as a religiously conservative country. after all, Islam's holiest cities (Mecca and Medina) are situated in it. As such, religious leaders extoll a huge influence on the public.
Saudi Arabia is also a country steeped on the tradition of having a royal family in power. I believe that based on the actions and attitudes of the royal family displays abroad, that they are a very tolerant group of individuals. At the same time they have to be careful not to show off an overly lavish and non-religious lifestyle in their own country. After all, that is what got the Shah of Iran in trouble. It wasn't so much his supression of some of his opponents as much as the fact that the religious leaders of Iran didn't like that he was trying to modernize Iran too quickly.
As such, the Saudi monarchy has to play a delicate game of balance between slowly giving more rights and freedoms to its people, while not upsetting the religious leaders in the kingdom.

It seems wrong to me to point fingers at Saudi Arabia in connection to 9/11 b/c the Saudi individuals responsible for the dreadful attacks on US soil are considered enemies of the state in Saudi Arabia. The kingdom has been trying to crack down on homegrown terror, as well as to avoid supporting terrorist organizations abroad. Pro-Iranian supporters have been giving the Saudis slack for not supporting Hezbollah last year, and b/c the Saudis seem to be supporting Sunnis in Iraq.
The Saudi royal family tries to have its pulse on the nation. They know that many Saudis have travelled abroad to the West, and even moreso to countries like the UAE and Jordan. Saudi youths enjoy partying it up in places like Aquaba or other popular Arab resorts. They have access to world news and entertainment, and the Saudi government knows that over time the general public's acceptance of different things grows. At the same time many Saudis are still very religious and wouldn't like to see the status quo change.
I believe Saudi Arabia is slowly but surely making progress as far as giving more rights and protection, like for example to its women. Things are in no way moving as quickly as I'd like to see them move, but again there could be a severe homegrown backlash if there's too rapid of a movement forward.

Old Post Sep-30-2007 00:28  United States
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

Democratic reformation is always good, but the US needs to practice a policy of respecting national self-determination as it does with Saudi Arabia. Just because a country is not a liberal capitalist republic doesn't mean it should be labeled as an axis of evil. The difference between Saudi Arabia and others like Iran is that Iran won't conform.


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Old Post Sep-30-2007 00:35  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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Lebezniatnikov
Stupidity Annoys Me



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: DC

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
but the US needs to practice a policy of respecting national self-determination



You mention self-determination in nearly every single post you make, but I wish you would clarify what you mean by it. In this day and age, asking for complete isolation in world affairs is a bit ludicrous, what with international trade and the unimpeded flow of people between borders.

Self-determination is a concept, not an internationally-recognized law. And it is one that has never been followed to the letter either, by the United States or any other country.


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Old Post Sep-30-2007 16:01  United Nations
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

"the right to self-determination holds the prestigious position of Article 1 in both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR)."
wiki (if wiki ain't good enough for you, I can certainly find more sources)

It is recognized in the UN Charter and therefore is a part of international law. It is also one of the key concepts in sovereignty, also recognized in the UN Charter as the right every state has.

The neocons on this board constantly want to defend ESPECIALLY the west's interference in Iran for the past 100 years, yet fail to realize this is against international law and is OUTRIGHT DISRESPECT of our neighbors in the world. They shouldn't be surprised when they storm our embassy or act out in ways we find repulsed by.


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Old Post Sep-30-2007 16:19  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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Lebezniatnikov
Stupidity Annoys Me



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: DC

Right, but my point is this. The Treaty of Westphalia, upon which the UN Charter and other documents are supposedly based, makes absolutely no explicit mention of either sovereignty or self-determination. In fact, it only served to solidify the status quo of hierarchy in Europe following the 30 Years' War, whereby the Holy Roman Empire had administrative authority over the individual German republics, and Spain, France, and Sweden just acknowledged their inability to wrest those German principalities from Holy Roman control. Nobody was interested in asking the Germans what they wanted, whether independence or allegiance to a particular party. It was simply a formal declaration of the way power in Europe was distributed.

And yet, that is precisely where we get the concept of self-determination. So my argument is that not only is the contemporary concept of self-determination faultily grounded, but it has never actually been practiced either. You can point to the Founding Fathers, but the United States did not fight the Revolutionary War for some lofty principle of self-determination. We fought it for a variety of reasons, not least of which that we wanted to pay less for imported goods from other countries.

The Atlantic Charter touted the principle of self-determination as well, but was then used to justify lumping together the Czech Republic and Slovakia as one country, and all of the Balkan states as one entity. Again, it was imposed upon them from above. And what did the Charter accomplish regarding colonialism, probably the most egregious breach of the principle of self-determination in world history? Remember, the United Nations wrote its Charter in 1948, but Ghana, the first African state to receive its independence from a European colonial power, did not receive independence until 1957. And colonial independence was certainly not a gesture of goodwill toward the internationally-agreed-upon principle of national sovereignty either - it was simply a prudent measure taken by Europe to avoid violent conflict, such as what arose in Algeria, Angola, the DRC, Kenya, or Zimbabwe.

Non-interference in domestic affairs is also something that has never existed. Washington warned of entangling alliances, but lest we forget how we won our independence we should note that it was an alliance with France that proved critical in driving off the British. Had the Marquis de Lafayette not arrived, and France not fought the British over control of the Channel, America would undoubtedly still be part of the Commonwealth. So to argue that a nation (which doesn't really exist either - reference Benedict Anderson) can put into place its own system of government of its own choosing is often naive.

Furthermore, the United States is far from the only country that interferes with the domestic affairs of sovereign states. The United Nations, European Union, ASEAN, NATO, etc. are supranational entities with some level of authority over the actions and behavior of member states, who willingly give up some of their sovereignty to join. That's the way the international system works. For each state to remain completely independent of one another, the world trade system would completely collapse, arms races would be the norm, and war more frequent. There would be no mediatory authority in any regard to interaction between states.

Lastly, I will leave with some thoughts on the relevance of self-determination today. In 1998, a Symposium on the continuing political Relevance of the Peace of Westphalia, then–NATO Secretary General Javier Solana said that "humanity and democracy [were] two principles essentially irrelevant to the original Westphalian order" and levied a criticism that "the Westphalian system had its limits. For one, the principle of sovereignty it relied on also produced the basis for rivalry, not community of states; exclusion, not integration." In other words, self-determination carried out to its logical conclusion implies that there is no oversight over bad behavior - rivalries grow as states compete for power and security, and the lack of economic or political linkages makes it appealing for states to attempt to expand their sphere of influence through power projection and the use of force. Furthermore, sovereignty allows no provision for human rights and the treatment of an individual population. For instance, what is happening in Burma would likely happen all across the world - think about the Middle Ages in Europe, when foreign policy isolationism was probably at its apogee. Europe devolved into hegemonic principalities based on the tenets of Machiavellian leadership - whoever could demonstrate the most power, be it through violence or culture, retained control. Principalities were expanded not through economic linkages and exchange of thought, but through convulsions of violent conflict.

Also, in 2000, then–German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer referred to the Peace of Westphalia in his Humboldt Speech, which argued that the system of European politics set up by Westphalia was obsolete: "The core of the concept of Europe after 1945 was and still is a rejection of the European balance-of-power principle and the hegemonic ambitions of individual states that had emerged following the Peace of Westphalia in 1648, a rejection which took the form of closer meshing of vital interests and the transfer of nation-state sovereign rights to supranational European institutions." The international system is migrating to more global governance through the creation of institutions that promote global issues and understanding. I don't see how this is a bad trend. After all, violent conflict between member states of the EU seems absurd.

If you look to see who is arguing for increased national sovereignty today, it's reactionary people like Pat Buchanan and Jean-Marie le Pen, and groups like al-Qaeda. In the aftermath of the 11 March 2004 Madrid attacks, Lewis ‘Atiyyatullah, who claims to represent the terrorist network al-Qaeda, declared that "the international system built-up by the West since the Treaty of Westphalia will collapse; and a new international system will rise under the leadership of a mighty Islamic state".

Globalization and internationalization of politics has been a very good trend. It has maximized production through the liberalization of trade and it has provided greater peace and security than at any other point in history.

To implement protectionist and non-intervention principles into the American body politick would, I believe, be extremely detrimental to the international system.


___________________

Old Post Sep-30-2007 16:46  United Nations
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CHRles
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Nashville

Damn that was some good reading. Thanks Lebezniatnikov

Old Post Sep-30-2007 17:14  United States
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

I am all for free-trade and international relations. But as democracies of the world who respect the basic rights of life, liberty, and private property, we should also apply these concepts to the international curcuit. Which would mean the respect of their liberty (self-determination), private property (sovereignty), and life (refrain from war).

Don't take me as saying the turmoil of the world is all because of the US. That is not my point or argument. I focus on the US because this is my country, and I want to focus on how my country can change so as to better the world equilibrium. As an American, I have the power to influence change in my country only, and cannot focus on changing the policies of other nations. That is their citizens own job not ours.

I realize that the norm is contrary to the principles I stand for, but I will try my damned hardest to empower my government to serve the people, and follow these principles so we can live in peace. The neocons believe contrary to these essential principles, and I will fight them until their factions are destroyed so we can live in peace, and not be viewed as the "American Empire" we are viewed as today.

I love free market capitalism and American prosperity. But at what cost? Peace, integrity, reputation? Come on, let's not implement the ambitions of a few at the cost of many..


___________________

Old Post Sep-30-2007 17:18  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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Lebezniatnikov
Stupidity Annoys Me



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: DC

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
I am all for free-trade and international relations. But as democracies of the world who respect the basic rights of life, liberty, and private property, we should also apply these concepts to the international curcuit. Which would mean the respect of their liberty (self-determination), private property (sovereignty), and life (refrain from war).


Who is "they" - the liberty of a regime, or the liberty of its people? Because the people of Darfur and the Sudanese government, for instance, are very different entities with very different ideas about self-determination. Complete respect of a nation's self-determination means that the international community should turn a blind eye to places like Darfur and Burma, and those are my main contentions with the concept, even more so than international trade.


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Old Post Sep-30-2007 17:26  United Nations
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Who is "they" - the liberty of a regime, or the liberty of its people? Because the people of Darfur and the Sudanese government, for instance, are very different entities with very different ideas about self-determination. Complete respect of a nation's self-determination means that the international community should turn a blind eye to places like Darfur and Burma, and those are my main contentions with the concept, even more so than international trade.


The supreme authorities of all recognized nations. Humanitarian aid and economic sanctions are the highest means of helping nations in civil wars and humanitarian crises started by the government. But never should we invade or threaten a country because of what happens inside. Only unless the supreme authority asks us to bring troops as peacekeepers. Diplomacy diplomacy diplomacy. Always continually offer aid to these regions but they have to ask for it. We should not be forcing it on them militarily.

You let aggressors know that if they launch a war of aggression, you will have a united front to repel them. So if Iran wants to attack Israel, they will know whats coming because Israel has a united front with the US and NATO.

You can still respect sovereignty and self-determination and not turn a blind eye to humanitarian crises around the world.


___________________

Old Post Sep-30-2007 18:17  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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Lebezniatnikov
Stupidity Annoys Me



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: DC

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
The supreme authorities of all recognized nations. Humanitarian aid and economic sanctions are the highest means of helping nations in civil wars and humanitarian crises started by the government. But never should we invade or threaten a country because of what happens inside.

You can still respect sovereignty and self-determination and not turn a blind eye to humanitarian crises around the world.



This begs several questions:

What about illegitimate elections?

What about authorities that exercise oppression over their own people? i.e. Belarus, China over the Uighers, Russia over the Chechens, Turkey over the Kurds, Sudan over the Fur, Rwanda over the Hutus, Zimbabwe, etc.

What about failed states? Somalia and Sierra Leone are perfect examples of what happens when there's a void in governance.

Don't get me wrong: I don't support the United States projecting force willy-nilly all over the globe. But I don't think it should be completely taken off the table either.


___________________

Old Post Sep-30-2007 19:39  United Nations
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London
Re: With Regards To Saudi Arabia

quote:
Originally posted by CHRles
The following post contains my views and theories, which while I can't support via sources, seem to make logical sense to me...

Saudi Arabia has long been known as a religiously conservative country. after all, Islam's holiest cities (Mecca and Medina) are situated in it. As such, religious leaders extoll a huge influence on the public.
Saudi Arabia is also a country steeped on the tradition of having a royal family in power. I believe that based on the actions and attitudes of the royal family displays abroad, that they are a very tolerant group of individuals. At the same time they have to be careful not to show off an overly lavish and non-religious lifestyle in their own country. After all, that is what got the Shah of Iran in trouble. It wasn't so much his supression of some of his opponents as much as the fact that the religious leaders of Iran didn't like that he was trying to modernize Iran too quickly.
As such, the Saudi monarchy has to play a delicate game of balance between slowly giving more rights and freedoms to its people, while not upsetting the religious leaders in the kingdom.

It seems wrong to me to point fingers at Saudi Arabia in connection to 9/11 b/c the Saudi individuals responsible for the dreadful attacks on US soil are considered enemies of the state in Saudi Arabia. The kingdom has been trying to crack down on homegrown terror, as well as to avoid supporting terrorist organizations abroad. Pro-Iranian supporters have been giving the Saudis slack for not supporting Hezbollah last year, and b/c the Saudis seem to be supporting Sunnis in Iraq.
The Saudi royal family tries to have its pulse on the nation. They know that many Saudis have travelled abroad to the West, and even moreso to countries like the UAE and Jordan. Saudi youths enjoy partying it up in places like Aquaba or other popular Arab resorts. They have access to world news and entertainment, and the Saudi government knows that over time the general public's acceptance of different things grows. At the same time many Saudis are still very religious and wouldn't like to see the status quo change.
I believe Saudi Arabia is slowly but surely making progress as far as giving more rights and protection, like for example to its women. Things are in no way moving as quickly as I'd like to see them move, but again there could be a severe homegrown backlash if there's too rapid of a movement forward.

No no no!

I don't think I could disagree more with what you wrote above!

Saudi Arabia is one of the most repressive regimes in the world, but because it is an "ally" (the quotation marks will make sense later...) of the United States, for various reasons, there is a concerted effort by the American administration to portray it as forward looking and modern, because if the population knew the truth, the US regime would take a lot of flack for being friendly with it.

America's relations with Saudi Arabia represent the old school of international relations, completely at odds with the neoconservative world view. The old school of thinking puts business interests first - sod the people that live there! The neocons HATE Saudi Arabia and have not been shy about expressing that point of view. You may find the following articles from the neocons interesting:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/995

http://www.travelbrochuregraphics.c..._the_saudis.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...anguage=printer

http://newamericancentury.org/saudi-052302.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...ortal/2003/12/3

Sunni extremism is the greatest (Islamic) threat to West. Saudi Arabia is the source of most of the extreme violent Sunni jihadism - forget the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt or Hamas in Palestine, they are practically liberals compared to this form of Islamism. Forget Iran and Shiite extremism too, they are simply nothing compared to Sunni extremism.

In fact it is interesting to draw a quick comparison between life in Saudi Arabia and life in Iran. At the moment, all the attention is on Iran, trying to make them look like a vicious dictatorship, yet the image of Saudi Arabia (and Egypt) is one of forward looking reformists. Well I can tell you that is bollocks. In Saudi Arabia, women do not have ANY rights - no vote, nothing. Religious minority groups (ie Shiites) are threatened with genocide by the political elite. In Iran, women and minorities not only have the vote, but the Iranian Parliament contains women and Jewish MPs. That's not to say Iran is free or anything like what we would consider free, but it is so so so much more liberal and modern than Saudi Arabia will be for 20 years imo.

So why do you have this impression that Saudi Arabia is somehow trying its hardest to reform and liberalise? And why am I telling you this impression is completely false?

The reason is because of the "dual" monarchy that exists in Saudi Arabia. There are literally hundreds of Princes that rule the country. These Princes are split into two groups - the reformers and the religious clerics. The reformers tend to control foreign affairs and the religious clerics control the domestic field. The international image of Saudi Arabia is promoted by the reformers, and helped by their American allies, to portray Saudi Arabia as attempting to modernise. You mention Saudis going abroad and living it up getting drunk and fucking hookers - these are the reformers. They are led by Prince Abdullah - America's great ally.

But back home, Prince Nayef controls the religious cleric Princes that dictate domestic policy. This groups is the greatest enemy of America there is after al-Qaida (but even then, their greatest enemy are the Shiites - who they accuse of being in cahoots with America and Israel to destroy Sunnis). They openly support al-Qaida, have pardoned the 9/11 hijackers and fund Wahabbism around the globe, spreading the most extreme form of Islam there is.

If you are interested in Saudi Arabia, as well as the neocon articles I linked to above, the BEST article is one that appeared in Foreign Affairs a few years ago - it is an absolute MUST if you want to understand the complexities of Saudi politics:

The Saudi Paradox

Old Post Oct-01-2007 19:01  England
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CHRles
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Nashville

I'm reading the articles right now.
The one you indicated as the most important doesnt really reveal anything I didnt know
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20040...di-paradox.html

For example, the following quote was demostrated in the movie Syriana:
"Ever since King Fahd's stroke in 1995, the question of succession has been hanging over the entire system, but neither prince has enough clout to capture the throne."

Syriana also talked about the problems the Saudi economy and people are facing.

Also pay attention to the wording towards the bottom of the article:
"For the most radical Saudi clerics, these enemies include Christians, Jews, Shi`ites, and even insufficiently devout Sunni Muslims. "

It says that for the most radical Saudi clerics, not all or even the majority of them.

The second article is also quite interesting, but basically concludes that bribery and corruption between Saudi and American officials are the problem:
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/995

The next article talks at some point about how Saudi Arabia has been much more stable politically then many of its neighbors:
http://www.travelbrochuregraphics.c..._the_saudis.htm

So again, this goes back to a need to have a delicate balance. Since some religious clerics are so powerful that is why some Saudi money ends up in the hands of anti-western organizations.
The article also rightfully so points out that Russia's power as an oil-producing country is rising.

A quote from the article:
"The sheiks, however, are being led by events that are rapidly careering out of their control. If Saudi Arabia pumps less oil, there will be shocks and disruptions, but eager new producing countries will soon fill the void; if the Saudis export more, then the price may well collapse altogether"

And just below it reads:
"In sum, a Saudi Arabia with a sizable debt and no real nonpetroleum economy needs consumers as much as, or more than, buyers need Middle Eastern producers. Saudi Arabia is ever so slowly losing its vaunted place as the world’s price-fixer, and its past history and present machinations reveal it to be no more or less a friend of the United States than any other Islamic exporting country. If the Saudis declared another embargo, it might fare about as well as Saddam Hussein’s recent ban of exports to the United States—and cause a surge in pumping and exploration from Russia and South America."

Very good artcile though, and it does put Saudi Arabia in a more agressive/agressor position then an innocent party.

The most interesting piece of news I found in the next article, from 2002 mind you, is this one:
"The anti-Saudi views expressed in the briefing appear especially popular among neoconservative foreign policy thinkers, which is a relatively small but influential group within the Bush administration. "

So appearantly the neocons are only a small group with the Bush administration.

The next article paints Saudi Arabia pretty much in a one dimensional light. Though it hints at the complexities of the country, it doesnt deliver like the other articles to show where these complexities come from:
http://newamericancentury.org/saudi-052302.htm

The article from the Telegraph was pretty funny actually. Consider the following:
"The manifesto, presented as a "manual for victory" in the war on terror, also calls for Saudi Arabia and France to be treated not as allies but as rivals and possibly enemies."

France as a possible enemy? Shhhyeah right. Let's blame France for 9/11, LOL. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Is that what the war hawks really indicated we should do? hahaha.

The article, which was written in 2003, does talk about how the Iranian regime at the time was different, when you didn't have Ahmedanijad in power:
"Though on leave recovering from a prostate cancer operation, Mr Powell summoned reporters to his bedside to hail "encouraging" signs of a "new attitude" in Iran and call for the United States to keep open the prospect of dialogue with the Teheran authorities."

Thanks for the links though. Most of the articles were very informative, and does help one gain more perspective on the issue at hand.
See, this is why I started this thread in the first place. I wanted to get peoples resctions and views

Old Post Oct-01-2007 20:12  United States
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