Only in the United States is abortion even an issue. Americans have too much time on their hands or they have nothing else to worry about.

OH FUCK FILIBUSTER FILIBUSTER FILIBUSTER FILIBUSTER FILIBUSTER

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd Only in the United States is abortion even an issue.

Well the US and - you know - pretty much any country in the world where women can get pregnant...

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quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Well the US and - you know - pretty much any country in the world where women can get pregnant...

It's not a political issue in any other country. Stop being a wise ass.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd It's not a political issue in any other country. Stop being a wise ass.

You obviously haven't heard of our health-minister, Tony "100,000 dead babies" Abbott, or read about the political debate he's been inspiring. Most western nations, I'll agree, seem superficially fairly indifferent towards abortion rights, but that's only because most western nations don't have a massive, ultra-religious, politically motivated, very vocal "pro-life" bloc like the US does, threatening a woman's right to choose at every opportunity they get. If abortion rights were threatened here (as they nearly were recently) or in Europe, I'm sure you'd see that it is most definitely a political issue that people would take every bit as seriously as they currently do in the US...

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Originally posted by Renegade If abortion rights were threatened here (as they nearly were recently)

This is interesting. Do you mean to tell me that there is actually a political debate in Australia about that? Could you elaborate on the specifics? Thanks

There are three main debates going on at the moment. The possibility of cash offers to discourage abortions, the possible introduction of a "cooling-off period" for Victorian women seeking late-term abortions and - most importantly - the possible legalisation of abortion drug RU486. You'll notice that our health-minister (who just happens to be a devout Catholic and fiercely anti-abortion - a great combination for a health-minister, huh?) is heavily involved in these debates, which have each sprung up over the past week or two.

I don't think that abortion in itself is under any sort of a grave threat here at the moment, but there have certainly been some fairly bold moves from members of the government (who hold a majority in the senate, meaning that they can pass any bill they want, pending party approval) to encroach slowly on abortion rights in unassuming, incremental steps. These are just the latest little sub-issues, btw, but if there is one issue that is brought up in politics and in the op-ed pages of newspapers in Australia more than any other, it would almost certainly be abortion.

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Originally posted by Renegade if there is one issue that is brought up in politics and in the op-ed pages of newspapers in Australia more than any other, it would almost certainly be abortion.

Un-f*cking-believable.

But, let me draw your attention to the fact that abortion per se is not really debated here. What is debated is the number of abortions per year, which in Australia is 90,000, and looks like a pretty staggering statistic. Can someone post a comparative table of the # of abortions in different countries per year? I'd like to see how the US compares to Australia's figure of 90K/year.

In any event, your "conservative" Health Minister would be vilified and lose whatever support he has, were he to make any general statements about abortion being "immoral" or whatever -- the way American demagogues beat this dead horse here in the USA. In any normal country -- and the US in NOT included in this list -- no one really questions the public wisdom that abortions must be legal and available. The only issue for your country, it seems, is the astonishingly high number of abortions, but not the morality or legality thereof.

Last edited by HardTranceProd on Oct-19-2005 at 18:58

A quick search of the opinion pages of one paper (The Age) from just this year:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Edito...7476802402.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opini...7586748054.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Natio...3854195968.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opini...3353379701.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Miche...7228694857.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opini...3958001532.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Opini...7409981808.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Opini...9546864717.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opini...l?oneclick=true

Google's listing 22,600 results for "abortion" from that paper alone:

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=...nG=Search&meta=

Like I said, it's an issue that keeps on coming up periodically, even more so now that we have a conservative government with a fervently pro-life health-minister. You'd be suprised at just what a highly politicised issue abortion can be as soon as abortion rights are challenged in the slightest...

[/derail]

Oh, you edited your post:

quote:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HardTranceProd Un-f*cking-believable. But, let me draw your attention to the fact that abortion per se is not really debated here. What is debated is the number of abortions per year, which in Australia is 90,000, and looks like a pretty staggering statistic. Can someone post a comparative table of the # of abortions in different countries per year? I'd like to see how the US compares to Australia's figure of 90K/year.

1.3 million abortions per year in the US according to this site, which makes the per-capita abortion rate more or less the same for both countries.

quote:

In any event, your "conservative" Health Minister would be vilified and lose whatever support he has, were he to make any general statements about abortion being "immoral" or whatever -- the way American demagogues beat this dead horse here in the USA.

The worrying thing is that the criticism has generally been fairly muted. Australian's are fairly schizophrenic when it comes to abortion, with 87% agreeing that measures should be taken to reduce the number of abortions, but 70% agreeing that it should be legal (link). So the problem is that when people like Tony Abbott come out and propose laws that would demonstrably restrict abortion rights, most people are fairly ambilvalent and non-commital because hey - anything that reduces the number of abortions must be okay, right? Basically, he's using his position in the cabinet as a pulpit to preach against the immorality of a legitimate medical procedure in the capacity of the fucking federal health-minister and the uproar has been fairly subdued at best.

I don't think it's the people don't care, it's just that they're unable to take a side on the issue.

quote:

In any normal country -- and the US in NOT included in this list -- no one really questions the public wisdom that abortions must be legal and available. The only issue for your country, it seems, is the astonishingly high number of abortions, but not the morality or legality thereof.

30% of Australians, if that survey is to be believed, believe that abortion should be illegal. The number of abortions is a more predominant concern, sure, but the fact is that there is a large and - under the current government - increasingly vocal section of the Australian public who would like to see abortion outlawed altogether.

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Last edited by Renegade on Oct-19-2005 at 19:23

Wow, I thought like HardTranceProd that abortion wasn't really an issue in any western nation anymore.

In Sweden I have never ever heard anyone critizise abortion. I think the same goes for the other scandinavian countries, and most other Eurpeans countries as far as I'm aware (perhaps not Ireland?). Not even in Canada (which compared to Scandinavia is reeeeally religious), not even there is there any major party with a pro life stance.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Wow, I thought like HardTranceProd that abortion wasn't really an issue in any western nation anymore.

And I think I have a very good explanation for why Australia is similar to the USA in this regard.

Both of these countries are largely rural, as opposed to the urban Europe, Japan, and Canada. By rural vs. urban I mean the % of people living in big cities.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd And I think I have a very good explanation for why Australia is similar to the USA in this regard. Both of these countries are largely rural, as opposed to the urban Europe, Japan, and Canada. By rural vs. urban I mean the % of people living in big cities.

I think it is largely a rural vs urban divide when it comes to the abortion issue in the United States. Rural voters tend to be socially conservative, and are easily swayed by social issues such as abortion and gay rights. Urban voters tend to be more socially liberal due to their exposure to a greater variety of people and ideas.

Why didn't anyone take me seriously when I posted the thread earlier about Roe and Casey being overturned? It's a very real possibility.

The original Texas law that Roe V. Wade struck down is still on the books. If Roe and Casey are overturned, abortion will once again be illegal in Texas and many other states.

It will create a patchwork of different state laws, and fuel a black market for RU 486, and that $2 ulcer pill (I can’t remember the name) that causes miscarriages
.

Like the fundies, I also don't like abortion, but when you hear fundamentalists in the US decry how immoral countries like Holland are, the statistics simply do not add up.

Holland has among the lowest abortion and teen pregnancy rates in the Western world, and the US has among the highest.

This is due to Holland’s greater emphasis on education and availability of family planning services (in addition to, I believe their greater sexual openness).

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http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922117.html Abortion Rates in Western Industrialized Countries Country Rate per 1,000 United States 21.3 Australia 22.2 Sweden 18.7 Denmark 16.5 Canada 16.4 England & Wales 15.6 Germany 7.6 Holland 6.5 NOTE: 1996 data, except the U.S. (2000 data). Source: The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health.

I consider myself to have a strong moral center, and have thought long and hard about the abortion issue.

I have concluded that while I may have some say (in an advisory role) in a pregnancy I helped create, it would simply be outrageous for me to have any say whatsoever in the pregnancy of a woman I don’t even know thousands of miles away in Toledo Ohio or Atlanta Georgia.

Illegalizing abortion would relegate women to a second class citizenship status. The ability to control their reproduction free from governmental subjugation is absolutely central to their autonomy and personhood.

Making abortion illegal does not stop abortions.

In Colombia where abortion is completely illegal even in cases of rape or incest, botched abortions are the Third Highest cause of female mortality.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world...ticle319136.ece

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Figures from Colombia's Social Welfare Ministry show that about 300,000 illegal abortions are performed every year in the country. Ms Roa said these "backstreet abortions" were the third-highest cause of mortality for women in Colombia.

This is a life and death issue for our sisters, girlfriends, wives, female friends and co-workers.

Most Americans are pro-choice despite the fact our government isn’t.


There will be a mighty backlash imo if they overturn this 32 year old legal precedent, and its greatest casualty will be the Republican political coalition.



Renegade, I am curious as to what legislative or judicial means women in Australia have utilized in the past to gain abortion rights?

For example:

In the US and Canada, it is legal largely due to judicial fiat.

In Belgium, abortion was legalized through the legislative process.

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