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Psy-T
Melody Klein



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Haifa
Aristotle's Ethics

quote:
7

Let us again return to the good we are seeking, and ask what it
can be. It seems different in different actions and arts; it is
different in medicine, in strategy, and in the other arts likewise.
What then is the good of each? Surely that for whose sake everything
else is done. In medicine this is health, in strategy victory, in
architecture a house, in any other sphere something else, and in every
action and pursuit the end; for it is for the sake of this that all
men do whatever else they do. Therefore, if there is an end for all
that we do, this will be the good achievable by action, and if there
are more than one, these will be the goods achievable by action.

So the argument has by a different course reached the same point;
but we must try to state this even more clearly. Since there are
evidently more than one end, and we choose some of these (e.g. wealth,
flutes, and in general instruments) for the sake of something else,
clearly not all ends are final ends; but the chief good is evidently
something final. Therefore, if there is only one final end, this
will be what we are seeking, and if there are more than one, the
most final of these will be what we are seeking. Now we call that
which is in itself worthy of pursuit more final than that which is
worthy of pursuit for the sake of something else, and that which is
never desirable for the sake of something else more final than the
things that are desirable both in themselves and for the sake of
that other thing, and therefore we call final without qualification
that which is always desirable in itself and never for the sake of
something else.

Now such a thing happiness, above all else, is held to be; for
this we choose always for self and never for the sake of something
else, but honour, pleasure, reason, and every virtue we choose
indeed for themselves (for if nothing resulted from them we should
still choose each of them), but we choose them also for the sake of
happiness, judging that by means of them we shall be happy. Happiness,
on the other hand, no one chooses for the sake of these, nor, in
general, for anything other than itself.

From the point of view of self-sufficiency the same result seems
to follow; for the final good is thought to be self-sufficient. Now by
self-sufficient we do not mean that which is sufficient for a man by
himself, for one who lives a solitary life, but also for parents,
children, wife, and in general for his friends and fellow citizens,
since man is born for citizenship. But some limit must be set to this;
for if we extend our requirement to ancestors and descendants and
friends' friends we are in for an infinite series. Let us examine this
question, however, on another occasion; the self-sufficient we now
define as that which when isolated makes life desirable and lacking in
nothing; and such we think happiness to be; and further we think it
most desirable of all things, without being counted as one good
thing among others- if it were so counted it would clearly be made
more desirable by the addition of even the least of goods; for that
which is added becomes an excess of goods, and of goods the greater
is always more desirable. Happiness, then, is something final and
self-sufficient, and is the end of action.

Presumably, however, to say that happiness is the chief good seems a
platitude, and a clearer account of what it is still desired. This
might perhaps be given, if we could first ascertain the function of
man. For just as for a flute-player, a sculptor, or an artist, and, in
general, for all things that have a function or activity, the good and
the 'well' is thought to reside in the function, so would it seem to
be for man, if he has a function. Have the carpenter, then, and the
tanner certain functions or activities, and has man none? Is he born
without a function? Or as eye, hand, foot, and in general each of
the parts evidently has a function, may one lay it down that man
similarly has a function apart from all these? What then can this
be? Life seems to be common even to plants, but we are seeking what is
peculiar to man. Let us exclude, therefore, the life of nutrition
and growth. Next there would be a life of perception, but it also
seems to be common even to the horse, the ox, and every animal.
There remains, then, an active life of the element that has a rational
principle; of this, one part has such a principle in the sense of
being obedient to one, the other in the sense of possessing one and
exercising thought. And, as 'life of the rational element' also has
two meanings, we must state that life in the sense of activity is what
we mean; for this seems to be the more proper sense of the term. Now
if the function of man is an activity of soul which follows or implies
a rational principle, and if we say 'so-and-so-and 'a good
so-and-so' have a function which is the same in kind, e.g. a lyre, and
a good lyre-player, and so without qualification in all cases,
eminence in respect of goodness being idded to the name of the
function (for the function of a lyre-player is to play the lyre, and
that of a good lyre-player is to do so well): if this is the case,
and we state the function of man to be a certain kind of life, and
this to be an activity or actions of the soul implying a rational
principle, and the function of a good man to be the good and noble
performance of these, and if any action is well performed when it is
performed in accordance with the appropriate excellence: if this is
the case, human good turns out to be activity of soul in accordance
with virtue, and if there are more than one virtue, in accordance with
the best and most complete.

But we must add 'in a complete life.' For one swallow does not
make a summer, nor does one day; and so too one day, or a short
time, does not make a man blessed and happy.

Let this serve as an outline of the good; for we must presumably
first sketch it roughly, and then later fill in the details. But it
would seem that any one is capable of carrying on and articulating
what has once been well outlined, and that time is a good discoverer
or partner in such a work; to which facts the advances of the arts are
due; for any one can add what is lacking. And we must also remember
what has been said before, and not look for precision in all things
alike, but in each class of things such precision as accords with
the subject-matter, and so much as is appropriate to the inquiry.
For a carpenter and a geometer investigate the right angle in
different ways; the former does so in so far as the right angle is
useful for his work, while the latter inquires what it is or what sort
of thing it is; for he is a spectator of the truth. We must act in the
same way, then, in all other matters as well, that our main task may
not be subordinated to minor questions. Nor must we demand the cause
in all matters alike; it is enough in some cases that the fact be well
established, as in the case of the first principles; the fact is the
primary thing or first principle. Now of first principles we see
some by induction, some by perception, some by a certain
habituation, and others too in other ways. But each set of
principles we must try to investigate in the natural way, and we
must take pains to state them definitely, since they have a great
influence on what follows. For the beginning is thought to be more
than half of the whole, and many of the questions we ask are cleared
up by it.



Aristotle looks for the elusive universal good, and using several analogies concludes that the human good is measured against virtue...

He makes this conclusion, it seems, based on the analogy to what we consider a good lyre player; the goodness of which is determined by how well that person plays the lyre...

Why leap from that to measuring against virtue though? seems much more reasonable to me to judge a life against it's products (just as we judge a lyre player based on the quality of the product of his playing).


What thinks you?


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Last edited by Psy-T on Mar-13-2006 at 02:19

Old Post Mar-11-2006 15:02  Israel
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Psy-T
Melody Klein



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Haifa

Bleh, you guys really aren't into ancient philosophers, are you?

Let's forget about Aristotle then, and try to begin at the begining:


Is the ultimate goal of a human (from a personal stand point, not an evolutionary one) to be as happy as he can be?

If so, what is happiness and how can it be attained?

If you did not answer that to live a virtuous life is the way to happiness; are morals a relavant part of the equation that can affect your attainment of happiness (directly)?


___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

Old Post Mar-13-2006 02:18  Israel
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Spirit5
Nobody



Registered: Jun 2005
Location:

Happiness is obtained through many factors. One of them being satisfaction with life, as well as the person's "situation". Say if someone is going through a rough time, fights with their significant other, parent, trouble at school or work, or if someone dies, naturally they are going to be "unhappy". Happiness is both interal, it is also external, becaus it is projected. The inner becomes the outer in a sense. The inner world of emotions is often reflected in people's behavior. This is largely based on personality as well.

Some people are more suspestible to be happy, people handle situations differently, different things make people happy. I know I am quite content with just staying at home and being on TA, while someone else really has to go out with friends and have a good time to be happy. The ultiamte goal is happiness in my opinion, but that doesn't mean pure happiness, happiness as in "satisfaction" or a sense of "balance" in one's life. Too much happiness, or too much saddness, is not what we should achieve. But it seems that the consensus in society is that one should be happy, or at least strive for it. Hence why some people are "depressed" while others are just sad, and sometimes those people are looked down upon, especially with their peers, coworkers, family, society in general etc. There is no one way to achieve happiness (it is achieved differently for different people as i've noted), however if people have "balance" in their lives, they are more happy, rather than people who are constantly on edge with choas. Again a personality trait, just as some people are more likely to become depressed than others. But thats not the say those who are on edge aren't happy, but they should probably do something to lessen their anxiety or moodiness. Haha this is more "common sense" in what i wrote then "philosophical" per say, but I tried my best to answer your questions truthfully.

Oh and the morals thing, morals are important, but again they mean something to different people. Morals are subjective for the most part, and I don't think they have anything directly to do with morals, because there are plenty of people who are "immoral" in part of society's definition of it, and are happy, just as there are moral people who are not happy etc. Again, with morality, it is good to seek balance with it, and your happier that way I feel. If someone is so stuck on morality, they might not get much enjoyment out of life because they might view something as "immoral" even though others might think it's fun. Just as someone who is immoral might continously get into trouble and thus cause more chaos and saddness in their lives and others, then is really neccessary (but sometimes they can't help this because of various factors that make them do things deemed "immoral").

Old Post Mar-13-2006 03:49  United States
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by Psy-T
are morals a relavant part of the equation that can affect your attainment of happiness (directly)?

yes, directly. as to why? what you and maybe Aristotle have left out...fellow man.
quote:
But we must add 'in a complete life.' For one swallow does not
make a summer, nor does one day; and so too one day, or a short
time, does not make a man blessed and happy.

...nor does one man

Old Post Mar-13-2006 04:30  United States
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Psy-T
Melody Klein



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Haifa

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
yes, directly. as to why? what you and maybe Aristotle have left out...fellow man.

...nor does one man


are you saying a lonely man can not be happy?


___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

Old Post Mar-13-2006 06:16  Israel
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

i don't want to dwell too much on semantics, but the word "lonely" doesn't exactly imply a state of bliss.

are we talking about a man, alone, who has never met another? or a man who has no one.

two very different men

Old Post Mar-13-2006 06:22  United States
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Psy-T
Melody Klein



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Haifa

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
i don't want to dwell too much on semantics, but the word "lonely" doesn't exactly imply a state of bliss.


quite a subjective statement you have there

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
are we talking about a man, alone, who has never met another? or a man who has no one.

two very different men


the one who has never met another.


___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

Old Post Mar-13-2006 06:40  Israel
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

IMO he would have a better chance a achieving Aristole's happiness (if he even knows what happiness is) at first glance.

though Aristotle speaks of both men that serve others i.e. doctors, politicians. then illustrates men that don't necessarily serve others like musicians and carpenters. to me, incongruous to the statement of a moral equivalency that you seem to want to separate from men, and how we as a society know them to be. because lets be honest, a man alone knows no morals. only what can hurt him.

really i'm not that pompous sounding. it's that Aristotle brings it out in me...a lonely man

Last edited by Q5echo on Mar-13-2006 at 07:12

Old Post Mar-13-2006 07:00  United States
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Psy-T
Melody Klein



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Haifa

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
IMO he would have a better chance a achieving Aristole's happiness (if he even knows what happiness is) at first glance.

though Aristotle speaks of both men that serve others i.e. doctors, politicians. then illustrates men that don't necessarily serve others like musicians and carpenters. to me, incongruous to the statement of a moral equivalency that you seem to want to separate from men, and how we as a society know them to be. because lets be honest, a man alone knows no morals. only what can hurt him and other similar life.

really i'm not that pompous sounding. it's that Aristotle brings it out in me...a lonely man


what i wish to separate is morality from happiness

would help if you'd give some examples of morality affecting the attainment of happiness directly (in the standard cases).


___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

Old Post Mar-13-2006 07:15  Israel
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by Psy-T
would help if you'd give some examples of morality affecting the attainment of happiness directly (in the standard cases).
you got me there. all i can give you is my moral perspective.

Old Post Mar-13-2006 07:35  United States
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trancaholic
Danish Prophet of Doom



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aalborg

quote:
Originally posted by Psy-T
Bleh, you guys really aren't into ancient philosophers, are you?

I've never liked Aristotle, but I would actually like to debate ethics. Unfortunately, I'm quite pressed for time right now, so...

Old Post Mar-13-2006 08:46  Denmark
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Jake Benson
Supreme Vaginaddict



Registered: Nov 2005
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by Psy-T Is the ultimate goal of a human (from a personal stand point, not an evolutionary one) to be as happy as he can be?


Generally yes, because happiness is a behavioral manifestation of physiological quiescence. (Note: there are exceptions to this)

quote:
If so, what is happiness and how can it be attained?


Happiness is free from physical harm and cognitive contentment which is regulated by hormones and chemicals.

I didn't know quite understand how to answer these questions from a "personal" standpoint, because to me "personal" includes psychology & physiology (both developed through evolution).

Old Post Mar-13-2006 12:40  United States
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