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Re: Re: Re: Sweden's Muslims denied their own laws
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
That's perfectly understandable. But, this is what I disagree with:
Why are you assuming this? Just because no one is actively speaking out against it (or so it seems)? Did it ever occur to you that most moderates feel like they're targeted by "both parties" i.e. non-Muslims (not all of them ofcourse, but more than not) and extremists? And by targeted I mean, eigther directly targeted or having to face repressed distrust or/and hatred (which may seem very subtle to most but it very obvious if it's directed towards you, atleast it becomes obvious over time if you have to deal with it very frequently, sometimes on a daily basis).
To me, the only thing this reflects is a justification for a growing fear/prejudice. "We're just going to assume that you're all like this since a fraction of yall are."
And like I mentioned before (sort of, a while ago), "dissenting" voices don't get much publicity and are often silenced/not covered by the media. I don't understand why this is so fucking hard to believe.
EDIT: Another thing I don't like about this attitude is that it already assumes guilt of a cetain quality/whatever, not just for an individual, but an entire group of people, somehow need to clear their name for. That's FUCKING BULLSHIT! |
As you say, you've raised these points before. While I certainly empathize with your predicament, and would even concede your point that it is unfair to expect each and every Muslim to distance himself from radicals, I have a couple of reservations about the details of your argument. Primarily, I do think that the 70000 members of the Muslim organization refered to in the article have an obligation to speak out, or leave the organization. When you elect a board of people as representing your interests, and these turn out to be radicals, others will and can (justifiably) assume that you agree with these views - unless you distance yourself from them, that is.
Moreover, if you identify yourself as a Muslim, and you feel misrepresented by the "official" faces of Islam (such as CAIR and Hizbu-Tahrir), you must create your own face of Islam and display it to the world or failing that back existing vocal moderates. It doesn't suffice to say "well, Muslim X have already distanced himself from radical idea Y, so there's no point in reiterating it", when so many Muslims are being vocal about their support of radicalims (e.g. in Denmark more people are members of Abu Laban's organization than Democratic Muslims). An example from another world is back when the Cartoon crisis escalated beyond control. Quite a lot of Danes disagreed with the publication (finding it to be a childish provocation) and the handling of foreign protests by our government. This disagreement resulted in several campaigns where people signed reconciliatory statements apologizing to Muslims on behalf of Denmark. These people felt that they were being misrepresented and thus established a visible alternative representation. By doing so they obtained the right to feel offended by people lumping all Danes into one big group of Islamophobic cartoonists.
Finally, your statement that moderates are simply not allowed their time in the spotligth is highly debatable. At least in Europe large parts of the media is left-leaning and are just dying to disprove the negative image of Islam. (The Democratic Muslims organization in Denmark has been getting much attention in the media since being founded earlier this year for example.) However, I decided to test your thesis, and went through CAIR's web-site (assuming that CAIR are moderates?). Surprise surprise, not one of their numerous press releases from the last couple of months denounce radicalism. The closest call is condemnation of the violence directed against Christians by Muslims in some Islamic countries, and the call for release of the Afghani Christian. The far majority of press releases are about talks, shows, books, and other materials educating westerners about the life and time of Muhammed. As a convinced agnostic I don't care about this - I want to know if I can live side by side with Muslims in the same society. And to be convinced of that I need to know that in the case that Muslims constitute 51% of the population I'm still going to live in a secular liberal society.
Investigating further, I searched their site for their views on Sharia (lots of hits), but apparently all CAIR has to say about that is things like: "Sensationalism Shrouds Debate on Sharia" and "Muslim Leaders Liken Sharia To Canada's Arbitration System", conveniently sidestepping actually commiting themselves to either supporting or rejecting introduction of Sharia in the west. Contrast that with the Danish Democratic Muslims, which among their six founding principles have "separation of state and religion" and "opposition to capital punishment". You may also contrast it with the Muslim Canadian Congress' press releases, which include "Don't be silenced by extremists", "MCC questions motives behind demand to ban debate on religion", and "Using a cartoon crisis to promote a conservative Muslim agenda". These people are clearly distancing themselves from fundamentalist medieval thinking, and the press do carry the message forward.
So, in short, if you want me to be convinced that the media silences moderate voices, then you'll have to point me to some press statements that have been ignored by the media.
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). Naturally since the debate is very limited this has lead to even worse policies, and I would say we have a ticking bomb here waiting since a lot of swedes are seeing themselves as above every other "race", and also value their traditions/culture which they think is the only and best way which must be kept to every price.
