Pretty interesting news coming out about the NSA and Bush's wiretapping fiasco that's supposedly completely legal. The Dept. of Justice was investigating the NSA on their wiretapping, but was all too eager in dropping their investigation once they got stonewalled by the NSA:

quote:

Security issue kills domestic spying inquiry NSA won't grant Justice Department lawyers required security clearance WASHINGTON - The government has abruptly ended an inquiry into the warrantless eavesdropping program because the National Security Agency refused to grant Justice Department lawyers the necessary security clearance to probe the matter. The inquiry headed by the Justice Department's Office of Professional Responsibility, or OPR, sent a fax to Rep. Maurice Hinchey, D-N.Y., on Wednesday saying they were closing their inquiry because without clearance their lawyers cannot examine Justice lawyers' role in the program. "We have been unable to make any meaningful progress in our investigation because OPR has been denied security clearances for access to information about the NSA program," OPR counsel H. Marshall Jarrett wrote to Hinchey. Hinchey's office shared the letter with The Associated Press. ... "Without these clearances, we cannot investigate this matter and therefore have closed our investigation," wrote Jarrett. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12727867/from/RSS/

Yep, sure can count on Gonzales to fight that investigation hard, can't we? Now why did the NSA block the investigation?

But it gets better.

You see, some companies have allowed the NSA access to your phone records, tens of millions of Americans to be exact:

quote:

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.... "It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added.... The NSA's domestic program, as described by sources, is far more expansive than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush said he had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop -- without warrants -- on international calls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to terrorists when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants have also not been used in the NSA's efforts to create a national call database.... [D]omestic call records -- those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders -- were believed to be private. Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information. ...Under Section 222 of the Communications Act, first passed in 1934, telephone companies are prohibited from giving out information regarding their customers' calling habits: whom a person calls, how often and what routes those calls take to reach their final destination. Inbound calls, as well as wireless calls, also are covered.... In the case of the NSA's international call-tracking program, Bush signed an executive order allowing the NSA to engage in eavesdropping without a warrant. The president and his representatives have since argued that an executive order was sufficient for the agency to proceed. Some civil liberties groups, including the American Civil Liberties Union, disagree.... In December, The New York Times revealed that Bush had authorized the NSA to wiretap, without warrants, international phone calls and e-mails that travel to or from the USA. The following month, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a civil liberties group, filed a class-action lawsuit against AT&T. The lawsuit accuses the company of helping the NSA spy on U.S. phone customers. Last month, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales alluded to that possibility. Appearing at a House Judiciary Committee hearing, Gonzales was asked whether he thought the White House has the legal authority to monitor domestic traffic without a warrant. Gonzales' reply: "I wouldn't rule it out." His comment marked the first time a Bush appointee publicly asserted that the White House might have that authority. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washin...sa_x.htm?csp=34

Now you see, you all need to relax, because these tens of millions of Americans are all terrorists or tied to terrorist suspects, so no need to get all excited. And besides, it's all legal, so no sweat.

What else is interesting is Nancy Pelosi has been asking and asking about this program, and she has requested to have this Administration draw up a list of Congressional members who had been briefed by the program, only to have it classified at the last minute so she couldn't see it:

quote:

Pelosi to Stephen Hadley: On December 22, 2005, I wrote to you requesting the dates and locations of, as well as the names of members of the Senate and House of Representatives who attended briefings on the National Security Agency (NSA) surveillance program discussed by the President in his December 17, 2005 radio address. You responded on December 29 informing me that you had asked the Director of National Intelligence to provide me with the information I had requested. The NSA Director has advised me that the information I sought has been sent to the House Intelligence Committee for secure storage because it was “classified and compartmented.” It is my understanding that the information provided is confined to a list of names of those who attended the briefings and the dates on which the briefings occurred. This is not national security information by any definition, and I therefore find the decision to classify it to be inconsistent with classification standards and completely without merit. http://www.democraticleader.house.g...sReleaseID=1539

The Administration has refused to even address the most inocuous facts about the warrantless wiretaps, including how many Americans were subjected to surveillance, which Admin. officials were briefed about the program and when:

http://rawprint.com/pdfs/HJCrawstory2.pdf


But who wants to be bothered by silly ol' laws like this? If our President doesn't give a shit about such laws, why the hell should we?:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...ndreds_of_laws/

It's all relative.......

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

USATODAY
NSA has collected 'tens of millions' of phone records

"The phone call records of tens of millions of Americans" have been secretly collected by the National Security Agency since President Bush authorized the so-called warrantless eavesdropping program after the 9/11 attacks, USA TODAY is reporting.

Citing "people with direct knowledge of the arrangement," the newspaper reports that the program "is far more expansive than what the White House has (previously) acknowledged." It has also been conducted, USA TODAY writes, with cooperation from AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth.
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Posted here before:
link1

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a reply posted at USA TODAY:
I was a kid in the late 50s - early 60s and grew up during the Cold War. I remember asking my Dad what the big deal was about the Russians (I was about 7 or 8 I think and didn't really know what was up). His reply essentially was: The Soviets listened to their citizens phone calls (NSA), decided what they could listen to or watch (FCC), encouraged citizens to inform on each other (TIPS program), tried and imprisoned people without visibility to the proceedings (Secret Courts), used torture to get information that benefitted the state (Abu Ghraib), spy on and search citizens abodes without warrent (Sneak and Peek Searches), and tracked what they read (Patriot Act), hijacked science to fit political ideology (Schiavo - Stem Cell Research - etc.), and so on... Given enough time, I'm sure other parallels could be drawn...

My questions is: at what point does America (not the small percentage of citizens who act as frothing partisans on the left or right but the 'Silent Majority' who understand that is it not politics but policy that makes a successful or non-successful administration) stand up and say enough is enough?

When I read stuff like this, I am ashamed to be a citizen of this formerly great nation. Seriously, how much many more of these actions similar to those of the Big Brother programs in 1984 do we have to endure? When will the surveillance cameras be installed in our apartments to monitor that we're not meeting with al Qaeda members or making bombs? It's fucking absurd. Why should the government have any right to know who I call and have personal conversations with?

It's yet another sad, sad day for American citizens.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

More info from an internationally renowned security technologist and author. Described by The Economist as a "security guru," Schneier is best known as a refreshingly candid and lucid security critic and commentator. When people want to know how security really works, they turn to Schneier.

Schneier on Security

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Note that this database does not just contain phone calls that either originate or terminate outside the U.S. This database is mostly domestic calls: calls we all make everyday.
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This is important to every American, not just those with something to hide. Matthew Yglesias explains why:

It's important to link this up to the broader chain. One thing the Bush administration says it can do with this meta-data is to start tapping your calls and listening in, without getting a warrant from anyone. Having listened in on your calls, the administration asserts that if it doesn't like what it hears, it has the authority to detain you indefinitely without trial or charges, torture you until you confess or implicate others, extradite you to a Third World country to be tortured, ship you to a secret prison facility in Eastern Europe, or all of the above. If, having kidnapped and tortured you, the administration determines you were innocent after all, you'll be dumped without papers somewhere in Albania left to fend for yourself.
-_______________________________________________

___________________
GOD IS BEZIG KAN IK U HELPEN

What makes you guys so sure they haven't been doing this for decades already?

booga booga!

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r What makes you guys so sure they haven't been doing this for decades already? booga booga!

They may have been, but does that make it right?? It's not come to light until now, so that's why people are upset. Also, the article on CNN, http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05...rds/index.html, states that this started soon after 9/11.

BTW, here's an interview with the reporter that broke the story from this morning's broadcast, presumably American Morning - http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/11/cauley/

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

You're all suffering from "Chicken-Little Syndrome".

You never stop to consider;

A.) This IS a necessary tool for fighting terrorism in the communication age.

B.) Why the hell could the government possibly care about your personal phone calls if you're not a terrorist? They may know about them, but do you really think they're going to follow up on who you're calling and why? MILLIONS of Americans? Making calls EVERY DAY!? They're only interested in terrorists calling patterns. They aren't going to do anything about the vast majority of your calls, even if you did make calls to "976-I-LIKE-BIG-BUTTS".

It's absurd and idioctic to worry about things which like this "prying" in to your "privacy". The government can barely keep up with what the terorists are doing. Do you really think they care what you're doing, no matter how weird or perverted it is?

Last edited by donnybrasco on May-11-2006 at 18:51

^^ True. (<--EDIT: That was in reference to Groundhogboy's post preceding donnybrasco's)

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r What makes you guys so sure they haven't been doing this for decades already? booga booga!

I hate arguments of the form "Well, it's the way it is/has been for a while, so we should accept it [edit 2]-> or what's the big deal?"

Common practice doesn't justify an act.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on May-11-2006 at 21:21

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco You're all suffering from "Chicken-Little Syndrome". You never stop to consider; A.) This IS a necessary tool for fighting terrorism in the communication age. B.) Why the hell could the government possibly care about your personal phone calls if you're not a terrorist? They may know about them, but do you really think they're going to follow up on who you're calling and why? MILLIONS of Americans? Making calls EVERY DAY!? They're only intersted in terrorists calling patterns. They aren't going to do anything about the vast majority of your calls, even if you did make calls to "976-I-LIKE-BIG-BUTTS". It's absurd and idioctic to worry about things which like this "prying" in to your "privacy". The government can barely keep up with what the terorists are doing. Do you really think they care what you're doing, no matter how weird or perverted it is?

I see someone drank their Kool-Aid this morning. Before, it was only INTERNATIONAL calls. Now, it's DOMESTIC calls. When you say, "They aren't going to do anything about the vast majority of your calls," I can't comprehend how anyone could support them even using a minority of your calls.

With the Bush administration's illegal detainments and holding people without charges, who's to say that YOU won't be detained because a friend of a friend calls someone who the US suspects of being involved in terrorist activites if they've got you indirectly linked to one of those people by phone call records.

Have you used Myspace or Friendster? Do you realize how many people you're connected to by 2 and 3 degrees of separation?

This country is going fucking insane over the fear of terrorism. Every one of you that condones this sort of behavior should be smacked upside the head and forced to read the documents that this country's laws and government were based upon, particularly the Constitution. The level of apathy regarding civil liberties, one of the PRIMARY reasons that we broke away from England and that people immigrate here, is appalling.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco You're all suffering from "Chicken-Little Syndrome". You never stop to consider; A.) This IS a necessary tool for fighting terrorism in the communication age. B.) Why the hell could the government possibly care about your personal phone calls if you're not a terrorist? They may know about them, but do you really think they're going to follow up on who you're calling and why? MILLIONS of Americans? Making calls EVERY DAY!? They're only interested in terrorists calling patterns. They aren't going to do anything about the vast majority of your calls, even if you did make calls to "976-I-LIKE-BIG-BUTTS". It's absurd and idioctic to worry about things which like this "prying" in to your "privacy". The government can barely keep up with what the terorists are doing. Do you really think they care what you're doing, no matter how weird or perverted it is?

Couldnt agree with you more. I dont see why everyone is like "omg they can hear me, blah blah blah". I mean, why would the goverment care to listen to our conversations, and they dont listen to all of them, just ones that might suspect for terrorism. I mean, if we want a safer, then we have to make some changes that might prevent future terrorist actions.

GH Boy;

I'm actually very big on civil liberties. But there is nothing here that is being trampled. They have to keep records in case they get a hit on someone and have to go back to find out who that person called.

And I don't care HOW many degrees of seperation you think there are, but I can assure you that if anyone has terrorists for friends or any friends who would be friends with terrorists, then that person needs to be checked out!

Did you forget that prior to 9-11 the Intel Community had a number of the hijackers on their watch lists, but they missed a chance to do anything about them...and why? Because they are so over-loaded with intel that they can barely keep up with watching who they are supposed to watch...let alone prying in to the private lives of ordinary citizens when there is no sign of terrorist activity going on anyway.

This is a an attempt to make something out of nothing.

*yawn*

the Brits do the same thing. it's data mining. big whoop. welcome to the technology we ALL exploit in one way or another. then again i love it when liberals whine about stupid shit.

(paraphrasing) from John Hinderacker: say that there are around 200,000,000 million Americans that make around 10 phone calls a day. it would be next be impossible for all 35,000 NSA employees to spend more than one second on each phone call. they're just phone numbers. that were in database already.

speaking of the Brits doing the same. something else to think about.

quote:

The suicide bombers who killed 52 passengers on London's transit system had a string of contacts with someone in Pakistan just before striking, Britain's top law enforcement official said Thursday. However, authorities admitted they didn't know what was discussed in those contacts and stuck with their contention that the blasts were a home-grown plot and that the degree of involvement by al-Qaida, if any, was unknown. Thursday's report by the Intelligence and Security Committee concluded that intelligence agents had been alerted to two of the suicide bombers before the attacks but limited resources prevented them from uncovering the plot. Reid, speaking of the contacts in Pakistan ahead of the attacks, said authorities did not know what was discussed. *** "There are a series of suspicious contacts from an unknown individual or individuals in Pakistan in the immediate run-up to the bombings," Reid said after his department released its narrative of the attacks. "We do not know their content." >source<

those are phone calls that should have been listened to. and are the exact phone calls the NSA is interested in.