The supersaw is always a bit topic these days and people are always not sure what it is or whatever. So I made a Wikipedia topic on it. Enjoy reading bliss :-|

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersaw

quote:

Supersaw From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia What is the supersaw? How is the sound achieved? Well here is a bit of info on Roland's supersaw. The "supersaw" is a special waveform originally on the Roland JP-8000 and 8080 line of Analog Modelling Synthesizers, thought I has made its way into other synths from Roland. The idea behind the supersaw is the emulate the sound of more than one sawtooth oscillator using just one oscillator. The waveform is described as freerun oscillator which its shape "or timbre" is that of 7 detuned sawtooth oscillators detuned against each other over a period of time. This creates the known chorus effect, which can be though of as 7 singers who are singing within +10 or -10 cents of each other. The reason the supersaw sounds so much different than that is that each oscillator of 7 is exactly the same shape, which creates a much clearer representation of that "chorus effect." The actual process that goes into the supersaw effect is known as Phase Desync. Phase Desync is a synthesis technique to achieve a "chorus" sound. It can be done by using a carrier wave "saw oscillator for example," and modulating its signal using a comb filter where the filter cutoff frequency is usually modulated with an LFO, which the LFO's depth (or amplitude) is equal to the saw oscillator's current frequency. It can also be done by using a copied signal and have the copy run throught a delay which the delay's time is modulated again by an LFO where the LFO's depth is equal to the saw oscillator's current frequency. But most of the time the effect is achived by taking two saw oscillators and detuning one plus or minus an amount of cents away from the other's current frequency. What produces the effect is the sum of two "desynced" waves produces a sum wave, which its timbre changes according to the position of the "desynced" wave of the pair. This all results in the effects that there is more than one oscillator and creates that shimmering and inconstant tone. The supersaw has taken much populaty in electronic music, and in specific the trance genre. This article was written by DJsentinel from Aylcame Productions. All information is as given and has been collected from self-knowledge and the various bits and pieces of the definiton of "supersaw" on the internet. You may contact DJsentinel at http://www.aylcame.aerohostale.com/

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Nice one mate!

I felt a plug for Tranceaddict was in order so I stuck one on the page and fixed up the language a little bit.

Hope you don't mind

i've a question about the LFO, i haven't really got to know it's use and i never used it in any of my sounds (just yet). could you elaborate in a more simpler way on the LFO role in the supersaw?

Well the supersaw itself is unknown. We really don't know how it works exactly. The idea is for Phase Desync to happen, ether you have to have two out of tune signals "like two out of tune oscillators," or you have to have a modifer and a modulator. Here are some instances.

Chorus Effect-

The chorus effect is made up of two or more delays with a very small delay time, usually around 1ms. The chorus copies the input signal and delays it a little bit. The sum output sounds like a flanger that has stopped. To put the sound into motion like the "supersaw" sound, you have to modulate that delay time back and fourth, and thats where the LFO comes in. The LFO modulates the delay time, therefore changing when the copied signal is added back to the original. This puts the copied signal out of phase or out of sync with the first wave, thus... creating the chorus or "supersaw" sound. Choruses are not very effective tho because they don't know the exact pitch of the input wave, so making a crisp sounding chorus requires much more. To have a chorus effect sound like the supersaw when one single sawwave is run throught it, the chorus would have to know the pitch of the incomming note, and change the range of the LFO depth, which will lengthin or shorten the range it modulates the delay time, this would make sure the millisecond delay time is equal to one wave cycle of the input, makes it much more realistic. Tho this only works if your chorus is polyphonic "A separeate chorus chain for each note entered." Oh course that would mean that the chorus is part of the oscillator itself, which is why the "advanced chorus" has been one speculation on how the supersaw works.

Comb Detune Effect-

The Comb Detune Effect is the same as the chorus but instead of using a delay and a copy signal, all the processing happens in the comb filter. This is much cleaner and processor friendly. With the other aspects like knowing the pitch and changing LFO depth, this could also be a possibility on how the supersaw is made. Tho problem with comb filter method is that the comb filter can't have any resonance or it will sound like a phaser :-D

Just a thought,
DJsentinel

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thanks for the info... i'll try to digest your words and try it out tonight. it's either i will know it or i won't understand it at all... *grahhhHHhh*

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Originally posted by LENG i've a question about the LFO, i haven't really got to know it's use and i never used it in any of my sounds (just yet). could you elaborate in a more simpler way on the LFO role in the supersaw?

Regarding the LFO:



As you can see in this picture i have turned the LFO´s a bit on all Osc´s, and the LFO-1 speed i set a bit over 12 a´clock (So you allmost do not see its blinking), and this creates a kinda vibrating, shalving sound to the supersaw, and often use this in pads, to give it more body. Almost never in a riff, but thats only how i do it.

Sorry if im bad at explaining, but i hope u understand what a want to say.

Cheers

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quote:

Originally posted by LENG thanks for the info... i'll try to digest your words and try it out tonight. it's either i will know it or i won't understand it at all... *grahhhHHhh*

You can't do this with V-Station :-|

You will need a modular synth like Reaktor, SynthMaker, or SynthEdit. Its hard to do otherwise.

Reaktor 5 works great for this,
DJS

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quote:

Originally posted by DJSentinel You can't do this with V-Station :-| You will need a modular synth like Reaktor, SynthMaker, or SynthEdit. Its hard to do otherwise. Reaktor 5 works great for this, DJS

Uhhm. i just explained to him how u CAN use the LFO´s in a supersaw, it didn´t have anything to do with your post.

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quote:

Originally posted by substorm Uhhm. i just explained to him how u CAN use the LFO´s in a supersaw, it didn´t have anything to do with your post.

I know, but that is just a vibrato effect I believe. An LFO modulating the oscillators current frequency.

I think LENG is wanting to try something more than that if I'm not wrong :-D

Peace,
DJS

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quote:

Originally posted by DJSentinel I know, but that is just a vibrato effect I believe. An LFO modulating the oscillators current frequency. I think LENG is wanting to try something more than that if I'm not wrong :-D Peace, DJS

Maybe, but he just said he NEVER used it before in his sound, so i thougt a soft start to get a feeling for it would be good.

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Maybe so :-D

DJS

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About the LFO.

If you try to synthesis an orchestral string sound or a violin or cello for instance using a subtractive synthesizer the basis of the sound is 2 saw waves detuned apart, phase split and pitch modulated positively and negatively. Then low pass filtered with resonance to remove the low end bloat and sibilance. Both saws are then rectified.

The LFO does the pitch modulation and is meant to replicate the natural vibrato that a cellist or a violinist would do to naturally sustain the note.

It is typically chorused afterwards as an orchestra would make use of several violinists and cellists. As good as each of the individual players are it is impossible for each instrumentalist to sustain a note at exactly the same pitch with te same vibrato as every other player. The chorus effect attempts to simulate this variation in pitch and phase

The supersaw is kind of the next step up in terms of an analogue modelled string sound, in the sense that it consists of multiple saws all detuned apart and phase split, modulated by a pitch LFO. The idea is to synthesize a kind of 'orchestral' string sound not just a solo string sound. It doesnt actually sound anything like an orchestral string sound but it is pleasant sounding nonetheless.

DJSentinal - that article will be heavily modified and it needs citation. It also doesnt describe the action of the feedback oscillator on the sound.

All digital waveforms are identical. The point of modulating pitch, detuning oscillators apart and chorusing effect is to make up for the articifial nature of having multiple identical timbres in unison. It doesnt sound natural.

Also, not to sound negative or anything but your credit will also be removed on wikipedia and it will probably get torn apart. It has to have citation and it has to avoid using subjective terminology like 'fat' as it leads to the assumption that 'fatter' sounds necessarily have more oscillators. Which isnt exactly true.

Seeing as Roland never published a shcematic, the inner workings of the supersaw will always come down to citation of what they have disclosed about the oscillator in the JP/V-Synth manual and what they say about it on their website. Anything beyond that is a leap in logic and wont conform to scholerly standards.

Quoted from Penny Arcade, Ad Verbatim:

Last edited by Derivative on Jun-21-2006 at 17:53