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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York
US army blocks RPG-defense system that WILL save soldiers lives to appease Raytheon

quote:

Army shuns system to combat RPGs
Experts agree it might help save lives, so why isn’t it in the field?

WASHINGTON - Rocket-propelled grenades, or RPGs, are a favorite weapon of insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are cheap, easy to use and deadly.

RPGs have killed nearly 40 Americans in Afghanistan and more than 130 in Iraq, including 21-year-old Pvt. Dennis Miller.

“They were in Ramadi, and his tank was hit with a rocket-propelled grenade,” says Miller’s mother, Kathy. “Little Denny never knew what hit him.”

Sixteen months ago, commanders in Iraq began asking the Pentagon for a new system to counter RPGs and other anti-tank weapons.

Last year, a special Pentagon unit thought it found a solution in Israel — a high-tech system that shoots RPGs out of the sky. But in a five-month exclusive investigation, NBC News has learned from Pentagon sources that that help for U.S. troops is now in serious jeopardy.

The system is called “Trophy,” and it is designed to fit on top of tanks and other armored vehicles like the Stryker now in use in Iraq.

Trophy works by scanning all directions and automatically detecting when an RPG is launched. The system then fires an interceptor — traveling hundreds of miles a minute — that destroys the RPG safely away from the vehicle.

The Israeli military, which recently lost a number of tanks and troops to RPGs, is rushing to deploy the system.

Trophy is the brainchild of Rafael, Israel’s Armament Development Authority, which has conducted more than 400 tests and found that the system has “well above [a] 90 percent” probability of killing RPGs and even more sophisticated anti-tank weapons, according to reserve Col. Didi Ben Yoash, who helped develop the system. Ben Yoash says he is “fully confident” that Trophy can save American lives.

And officials with the Pentagon’s Office of Force Transformation (OFT) agree. Created in 2001 by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, OFT acts as an internal “think tank” for the Pentagon and is supposed to take a more entrepreneurial — and thereby less bureaucratic — approach to weapons procurement and other defense issues, and to get help to troops in the field more quickly. OFT officials subjected Trophy to 30 tests and found that it is “more than 98 percent” effective at killing RPGs.

An official involved with those tests told NBC that Trophy “worked in every case. The only anomaly was that in one test, the Trophy round hit the RPG’s tail instead of its head. But according to our test criteria, the system was 30 for 30.”

As a result, OFT decided to buy several Trophies — which cost $300,000-$400,000 each — for battlefield trials on Strykers in Iraq next year.

That plan immediately ran into a roadblock: Strong opposition from the U.S. Army. Why? Pentagon sources tell NBC News that the Army brass considers the Israeli system a threat to an Army program to develop an RPG defense system from scratch.

The $70 million contract for that program had been awarded to an Army favorite, Raytheon. Raytheon’s contract constitutes a small but important part of the Army’s massive modernization program called the Future Combat System (FCS), which has been under fire in Congress on account of ballooning costs and what critics say are unorthodox procurement practices.


Col. Donald Kotchman, who heads the Army’s program to develop an RPG defense, acknowledges that Raytheon’s system won’t be ready for fielding until 2011 at the earliest.

That timeline has Trophy’s supporters in the Pentagon up in arms. As one senior official put it, “We don’t really have a problem if the Army thinks it has a long-term solution with Raytheon. But what are our troops in the field supposed to do for the next five or six years?”

Kotchman, however, says the Army is doing everything prudent to provide for the protection and safety of U.S. forces and insists the Israeli system is not ready to be deployed by the U.S. “Trophy has not demonstrated its capability to be successfully integrated into a system and continue to perform its wartime mission,” he says.

That claim, however, is disputed by other Pentagon officials as well as internal documents obtained by NBC News. In an e-mail, a senior official writes: “Trophy is a system that is ready — today... We need to get this capability into the hands of our warfighters ASAP because: (1) It will save lives!”

Officials also tell NBC News that according to the Pentagon’s own method of measuring a weapons system’s readiness, Trophy is “between a 7 and an 8” out of a possible score of 9. Raytheon’s system is said to be a “3.”

So why would the Army block a solution that might help troops?

“There are some in the Army who would be extremely concerned that if the Trophy system worked, then the Army would have no need to go forward with the Raytheon system and the program might be terminated,” says Steven Schooner, who teaches procurement law at both George Washington University and the Army’s Judge Advocate General’s School.

Trophy’s supporters inside the Pentagon are more blunt. As one senior official told NBC News, “This debate has nothing, zero, to do with capability or timeliness. It’s about money and politics. You’ve got a gigantic program [FCS] and contractors with intertwined interests. Trophy was one of the most successful systems we’ve tested, and yet the Army has ensured that it won’t be part of FCS and is now trying to prevent it from being included on the Strykers” that OFT planned to send to Iraq.

For families of soldiers like Denny Miller, any delay in getting help to the troops is unthinkable.

As Miller’s mother, Kathy, put it, “Do they have children over there? Do they have husbands or wives over there? They need to sit back and look at it maybe from a different angle. I just think it's ridiculous!”

The Pentagon is now trying to interest the Marine Corps in testing Trophy. But because of Army opposition, there are currently no plans to send the system to Iraq.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14686871/page/2/


I for one welcome government ineptitude that encourages budget overruns (that I pay for in taxes) for a project that is 6 years behind existing successful weapon technologies particularly when it results in the unnecessary deaths of US soldiers. Semper Fi!


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Old Post Sep-06-2006 06:15  United States
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

They are just looking out of the best interest of the shareholders just live every corporation should.

Wait a minute....



The trophy system is really cool though, I was wondering why the USA with their billions of dollars hasn't put it to field trials yet:


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Old Post Sep-06-2006 06:59  Israel
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
They are just looking out of the best interest of the shareholders just live every corporation should.

Wait a minute....



The trophy system is really cool though, I was wondering why the USA with their billions of dollars hasn't put it to field trials yet:



Ummm yea I wonder why . You really think these people are concerned about saving lives? It was put to field trials and it passed with overwhelming success. Is this a one way street that we only transfer technology to the Israelis??? This is what you get with the big government this administration has spawned (sarcasm not directed at you personally).


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Last edited by occrider on Sep-06-2006 at 07:20

Old Post Sep-06-2006 07:08  United States
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

firstly, id like to say im well fucking impressed with the technology here. its like something out of battletech /nerd.

but what a disgrace. so theyve paid 3-400K for each unit which theyre now not gonna use? if they do have their own program underway, why cant they utilise trophy concurrently with this new research? cant fathom the stupidity here


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Old Post Sep-06-2006 07:36  Australia
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Flotser
|Roots| Addict



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel

When i first saw a persentation about this system several years ago i was amazed.

And i'm so mad on our goverments that didn't accuire this system from Refael, because most Isralis soldiers killed in this last Lebanon war were killed inside tanks by advanced Russian anti-tank missles. It was all a quiestion of how to use the budget - not a technical issue.


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Old Post Sep-08-2006 10:30  Israel
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Ummm yea I wonder why . You really think these people are concerned about saving lives? It was put to field trials and it passed with overwhelming success. Is this a one way street that we only transfer technology to the Israelis??? This is what you get with the big government this administration has spawned (sarcasm not directed at you personally).


Right, I know this is what Rummy has been fighting against since the start of his tenure though (i.e. the crusader artillery piece) to get the military to more modern purchasing, deployment, and in a strategic though that is more in line with future threats than old cold war relics.

I guess one man can only do so much against the largest bureaucracy in the world....


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Old Post Sep-08-2006 21:20  Israel
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

And here's the reason why the army isn't adopting trophy:

quote:

NBC News investigation finds contractor enjoyed competitive advantage

WASHINGTON - Earlier this year, the U.S. Army awarded one of its favored defense contractors, Raytheon, a $70 million contract to develop a new system to combat rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs), which have killed nearly 40 Americans in Afghanistan and more than 130 in Iraq.

The Army insists that Raytheon won the contract fair and square based on its “systems engineering expertise and the discipline which they used in analyzing requirements, threats and potential solutions.”

But an NBC News investigation of the contract selection process reveals that at almost every turn, Raytheon was given a significant competitive advantage over other defense contractors, including an Israeli firm whose system was extensively tested and found to be highly effective.

When contacted by NBC News about this matter, Raytheon said it was not authorized to speak about how its contract was awarded and instead referred all questions to the Army.

Raytheon’s contract is a small but important part of the Army’s massive modernization program called the Future Combat System (FCS), which has been under fire in Congress on account of ballooning costs and what the U.S. Government Accountability Office [link to PDF report] found are worrisome procurement practices that allow weapons manufacturers to effectively tell the Army which weapons to buy.

The testing

Last year, the Army planned to test competing RPG defense systems in what officials refer to as a "shoot-off rodeo." At the time, Raytheon’s system was still on the drawing board, and the Army opted to cancel the test.

In a statement to NBC News, the Army explained that the cancellation was “primarily because of concerns related to cost, supportability, practicality and fairness.” But Pentagon officials involved in past shoot-offs say money should not have been a factor since defense contractors, not the Army, normally shoulder the cost of system vs. system competitions.


After canceling the shoot-off, the Army chose to conduct what it called a “traditional source selection.” We asked Col. Donald Kotchman, who heads the Army’s effort to field an RPG defense system, about that process.

Lisa Myers: Was the Raytheon system tested by the Pentagon?

Col. Donald Kotchman: The Army did not specifically test the Raytheon system.

Instead, Raytheon tested its own system this February.

Myers: How well did the Raytheon system do in its own testing?

Kotchman: I don't have that information.

Myers: Were there any Pentagon officials present for the Raytheon testing?

Kotchman: I do not know.

Video obtained by NBC News shows that Raytheon’s system was not tested under the most trying of conditions. It was mounted on a test stand, not on a moving vehicle.


By contrast, a different Pentagon division, the Office of Force Transformation (OFT) tested a competing Israeli system — called Trophy — and found it at least 98 percent effective against RPGs in near-battlefield conditions.

A number of senior Army officials were supposed to attend those March 2006 tests but canceled.

In a statement, the Army said it does “not know who was invited, who declined to attend, and why they did or did not attend the demo.”

But an e-mail obtained by NBC News provides some insight. In it, a senior Army official writes that the Army “just awarded a contract to Raytheon” and wanted to “focus all efforts toward supporting the fielding of the Raytheon ... solution.” Accordingly, the official went on to say, “I don’t want anyone to think I’m supporting [Trophy].”

Nevertheless, OFT officials were so impressed with Trophy’s performance that they decided to buy several systems — which cost $300,000-$400,000 each — for battlefield trials on Stryker armored vehicles in Iraq next year. That plan was eventually scuttled by the Army.

The selection team
In May, a technical team was chosen and given the task of evaluating competing RPG defense systems. But here again, Raytheon had a leg up.

Myers: Do you know how many of the 21-person technical team worked for Raytheon?

Kotchman: To the best of my knowledge, none.

Army documents obtained by NBC News, however, reveal that nine of the 21 technical experts — as well as all the administrative personnel — were from Raytheon. The team ultimately concluded that of the seven RPG defense systems examined, Raytheon’s was “the clear winner.”

Raytheon’s “Quick Kill” solution — which the Army concedes will not be fielded before 2011 at the earliest — won out over Trophy, the Israeli system championed by the Pentagon’s Office of Force Transformation.

Myers: It appears as though Raytheon was allowed to select itself.

Kotchman: I don’t know that to be a fact, and so I really can't comment on it.

The Army later told NBC News that, its own document notwithstanding, the technical team actually consisted of 30 people plus two administrative assistants and that a total of eight people were from Raytheon.

“That sure doesn't look like an objective panel to me,” says Phil Coyle, a former principal adviser to the secretary of defense on weapons testing and evaluation. “It just doesn't pass the ho-ho test when you have that many people from one company on the selection panel and then that company is the one that's chosen.”

Myers: Pentagon officials we spoke to said that the Army, quote, cooked the books on this.

Kotchman: I don’t know the basis of their assertion that the books were cooked and so ... I can’t confirm that.

Recently, the Senate entered the fray and in what congressional officials say was a slap at the Army, ordered Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to put together a new, independent evaluation of all RPG defense systems, foreign and domestic.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14704366/page/2/


These army officers need to be sent to Iraq.


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Old Post Sep-08-2006 21:40  United States
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
And here's the reason why the army isn't adopting trophy:



These army officers need to be sent to Iraq.


I think that is a fitting court-marshall, at least 3 tour of duties in Iraq passed the greenline.


The sad reality is these type of government workers never lose their jobs, never get sued, never are put to justice.


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Old Post Sep-09-2006 02:56  Israel
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metalgearsolid
I am a sexist



Registered: Apr 2005
Location: For you neo/

Man tech like this really sucks. It is making war boring cuz no body will have a weapon that can get passed the shield. But I guess that will be when someone else develops a better RPG.

Old Post Sep-09-2006 20:02 
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tathi
wanderlust



Registered: Jan 2003
Location:

war is boring? :/

Old Post Sep-10-2006 00:30  Australia
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metalgearsolid
I am a sexist



Registered: Apr 2005
Location: For you neo/

quote:
Originally posted by tathi
war is boring? :/
yeah war is boring when it is mostly one side doing all the dieing.

Old Post Sep-10-2006 02:15 
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pmoisse
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Amsterdam, NL (formerly Montreal QC)

That was quite an impressive video.

It's disgusting that there is any resistance at all to deploying this technology in the field.

The Israeli's have some of the best, most cost-effective home-grown defense kit out there. The US sends enough kit and money to the Israelis, why not learn & invest in their kit too (as someone else already said)?

This whole shitshow has been about politics first, and actually helping people in need a distant 2nd. Case in point is leaving the Iraqi populace unemployed immediately following the "victory" and rebuilding using imported American workers instead of the locals.

Top marks to Rafael for building this system. I would love to know how it works. Sound wave pressure to detonate the warhead maybe? Confuse it into thinking it hit it's target?

Old Post Sep-11-2006 02:34  Canada
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