Well on w/ my useless ranting while at school

The latest argument has been about scientology thanks in no part to Tom Cruise. A classmate berated scientology as if it was the religion or belief of lunatics

Yet I posed a question to him...

Scientology was developed by a science fiction author w/ a credible amount of education. Whatever he asks us to believe in...At least the founder was alive, visible, and reasonably educated


As opposed to...well...let us now put our faith in a Jewish carpenter who lived more than a thousand years ago. He asks us to believe that the world was created in several days...that there are angels/demons...that there was an Adam/Eve...that a great flood caused Noah to harbor ALL KNOWN SPECIES AT THE TIME....on and on


Which would you believe?

Well I find both to be absurd and idiotic. But it baffles me how people who have an adequate education in the sciences are so vehement towards the former dogma.

In my opinion both are outlandish...

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Originally posted by trance_shaft Well on w/ my useless ranting while at school...

Perhaps outlandish but given how little we know in the realm of physics and other sciences, we have no ability to prove or disprove any theory. You can see the all as ridiculous or possible based on what we know, nothing more.

Jesus didn't ask people to believe in what you've stated (according to the four gospels). He was born a jew but never explicitly tried to pass those beliefs to others. Rather, he asked that we treat each other civily, regardless of personal characteristics. He preached reverence to a higher power, based largely on the jewish model, which is what Jesus was familiar with. He preached community service and allegiance to that which promotes the social good.

Jesus may not have had the scientific background, but he understood the psychology of man as well as the social construction of 'society'.

It's just that scientology isn't as "in". What's more logical then? Christianity?

What a dumbass.

Science comes from the mind and the ideas that man has invented. Those ideas must come from a higher source and not just spring out of the air of a pile of matter that is in a human's head. With respect to Christianity, it has been around for many generations and the same basic root has been been going through each generation of man. So, basically, maybe there is a point to the whole Christianity thing. Maybe, just maybe Christianity - that is to say Jesus - is real and not just an idea that sprang up from the brain of a human like science. It also seems that in order to get the idea for science you have to have Christianity - the Jesus guy. So, things here seem to be pointing towards God! People are entitled to believe what they what whether it is in science, Christianity or both. Science has been changed around so many times but Christianity has not changed that much in the 2000 years since this Jesus guy - who is the son of God - died on the cross.

So, basically, the logical thing here is that humans have the freewill to believe what they want.

such genius newtotrance

I think Scientology is for crackpots personally. Everytime I've seen Hubbard interviewed, I've thought what a moron for some reason.

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Originally posted by tribu Perhaps outlandish but given how little we know in the realm of physics and other sciences, we have no ability to prove or disprove any theory. You can see the all as ridiculous or possible based on what we know, nothing more. Jesus didn't ask people to believe in what you've stated (according to the four gospels). He was born a jew but never explicitly tried to pass those beliefs to others. Rather, he asked that we treat each other civily, regardless of personal characteristics. He preached reverence to a higher power, based largely on the jewish model, which is what Jesus was familiar with. He preached community service and allegiance to that which promotes the social good. Jesus may not have had the scientific background, but he understood the psychology of man as well as the social construction of 'society'.

quote:

Originally posted by newtotrance Science comes from the mind and the ideas that man has invented. Those ideas must come from a higher source and not just spring out of the air of a pile of matter that is in a human's head. With respect to Christianity, it has been around for many generations and the same basic root has been been going through each generation of man. So, basically, maybe there is a point to the whole Christianity thing. Maybe, just maybe Christianity - that is to say Jesus - is real and not just an idea that sprang up from the brain of a human like science. It also seems that in order to get the idea for science you have to have Christianity - the Jesus guy. So, things here seem to be pointing towards God! People are entitled to believe what they what whether it is in science, Christianity or both. Science has been changed around so many times but Christianity has not changed that much in the 2000 years since this Jesus guy - who is the son of God - died on the cross. So, basically, the logical thing here is that humans have the freewill to believe what they want.

Right on, bitches.


both of those just basically defined my opinions and beliefs in religion. Good religion thread number 2198034789.

___________________
-Earthsnail-

quote:

Originally posted by newtotrance Science comes from the mind and the ideas that man has invented. Those ideas must come from a higher source and not just spring out of the air of a pile of matter that is in a human's head. With respect to Christianity, it has been around for many generations and the same basic root has been been going through each generation of man. So, basically, maybe there is a point to the whole Christianity thing. Maybe, just maybe Christianity - that is to say Jesus - is real and not just an idea that sprang up from the brain of a human like science. It also seems that in order to get the idea for science you have to have Christianity - the Jesus guy. So, things here seem to be pointing towards God! People are entitled to believe what they what whether it is in science, Christianity or both. Science has been changed around so many times but Christianity has not changed that much in the 2000 years since this Jesus guy - who is the son of God - died on the cross. So, basically, the logical thing here is that humans have the freewill to believe what they want.

Science is the recording of our observations of the physical world. Man has been doing it for centuries, well before christianity or judaism and perhaps any structured religion exists. Stratification and organization of the data provided by the physical world are aspects of survival.

Christianity has remained the same because part of it's dogma (though not officially) is that it is right and does not change. Science, on the other hand is open to change and theoretical possibility. I dont think duration of a belief is a significant determining factor. For years man generally believed many incorrect factoids about his world (see: geocentrism), some of those ideas rivaling the duration of christianity (though perhaps not judaism).

Jesus' message had a lot to do with patience and social tolerance. Are these ideas that simply sprang from nowehre or were they the result of social psychology? The best way to progress and get things accomplished as a society is through social harmony. There are added benefits here too, but Jesus' message clearly involved sizeable mutual (and self) respect between members of humanity.

I dont really see how Jesus' message is a precursor to science. Science was prevalent well before Jesus' time: The Roman Empire could likely not have existed without it.

Jesus had religious values, but lets not confuse what he actually said (as provided in the gospels) and what the church has made him to be. Jesus worshiped his father, and his father was Judaic by tradition, but he did not try to impose those qualities on others. He simply suggested a message of tolerance and dedication to living to impress a 'father', similar to how children are often hopeful of pleasing their parents. A life of responsibility, respect for other's, and suppressing the human characteristic of greed and self-interest were jesus' main messages.

I'll let my baby argue this one.

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Originally posted by tribu Science is the recording of our observations of the physical world. Man has been doing it for centuries, well before christianity or judaism and perhaps any structured religion exists. Stratification and organization of the data provided by the physical world are aspects of survival. Christianity has remained the same because part of it's dogma (though not officially) is that it is right and does not change. Science, on the other hand is open to change and theoretical possibility. I dont think duration of a belief is a significant determining factor. For years man generally believed many incorrect factoids about his world (see: geocentrism), some of those ideas rivaling the duration of christianity (though perhaps not judaism). Jesus' message had a lot to do with patience and social tolerance. Are these ideas that simply sprang from nowehre or were they the result of social psychology? The best way to progress and get things accomplished as a society is through social harmony. There are added benefits here too, but Jesus' message clearly involved sizeable mutual (and self) respect between members of humanity. I dont really see how Jesus' message is a precursor to science. Science was prevalent well before Jesus' time: The Roman Empire could likely not have existed without it. Jesus had religious values, but lets not confuse what he actually said (as provided in the gospels) and what the church has made him to be. Jesus worshiped his father, and his father was Judaic by tradition, but he did not try to impose those qualities on others. He simply suggested a message of tolerance and dedication to living to impress a 'father', similar to how children are often hopeful of pleasing their parents. A life of responsibility, respect for other's, and suppressing the human characteristic of greed and self-interest were jesus' main messages.

Yes, I understand what you are saying through all of this. I am basically trying to say that science comes from God because God created all things. Yes, Jesus did promote and preach about tolerance and dedication to living to impress and other things. Yes, suppressing the human characteristic of greed and self inerest were jesus' main messages. Yes, the Roman Empire could have existed without it but without God the Roman Empire would not exist as well. Yes, Jesus did not impose those qualities upon others. That is true. Yes, Jesus suggested a message of honouring parents. I am merely speaking upon the fact that God is the root and foundation for the world. Jesus alsowas the bridge that linked humanity with God. Jesus was apart the holy trinity and was also apart of promoting God's Kingdom. Christianity has evolved through the generations in the interpretations that people have received from the scriptures. But the main fact remains that Jesus was the son of God and that he came to bring peace to humanity's relationship with God. The ideas that come from the minds of man were created from God. Science is a product of God's creation. In Genesis it says that man was created in the image of God - that also invokes that man received the ability to think and and invent from God. Yes, Jesus promoted the message of living life preacefully and getting along with fellow humanity but just as well that went hand in hand with God being the ultimate source for everything. Simply, Jesus gave his blood so that humanity could live.

Let's not also forget what the church was built upon - God. Likewise, the idea that science was before Jesus is true but without God there would not be a world.

People suggest that by accepting Jesus, you accept the entire judeo-christian ideology. Do you consider that to be true?

I understand your point about God being the source of everything, but it seems to come down to the differences between how people interpret what their specific god wants. Codes of conduct, accepted governments, social living; all of this is affected by what the society sees is "right" by their god's standards. Right and wrong is a very sticky issue to discuss and people have argued to warred over it for most of mankind's recorded existence.

Its hard for me to accept the church's story of jesus, specifically the spiritual half. The church is a clearly biased body which financially benefits from the increased membership of its congregation. By claiming spiritual superiority and access to god, the church (I speak here of judeo-christianity, but really of all religious based governments) has been able to control much throughout the history of man. If I'm going to try to understand the message of Jesus, I want to read what was recorded and interpret it personally. And I don't need to think of Jesus as a spiritual guru or half heavenly creature that came to reconcile a humankind's forray into the knowledge of the gods. Jesus had plenty to say concerning life-style recommendations and living in a society that I feel we would benefit more from today tha the spritual nature that everyone seems to concentrate on.

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Originally posted by newtotrance Let's not also forget what the church was built upon - God. Likewise, the idea that science was before Jesus is true but without God there would not be a world.

This is a very faith-based statement that is an impossible arguing point.

Last edited by on Jun-25-2005 at 03:47

how about option 'c' = none of the above.

Humans can exist without religion.

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