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when i have time i will amigo

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Aaaagh, the legend himself, a very talented, clever and brave individual. The Great Man who traversed the continents of Africa and Latin America to fight for the rights and freedoms of poor people, of whom he was one at some point. I despise communism, but I admire Guevara for his selfless commitment and life spent in an attempt to fight American domination and military dictatorships in Latin America, and through that time he helped the poor any way he could, as a doctor for example. He's the first person I think of when someone asks me to mention a good and influential communist figure, though he wasnt quite communist.

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quote:

"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary...These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the The Wall! (El Paredón)" --Ernesto 'Che' Guevara

quote:

180 DOCUMENTED VICTIMS OF CHÉ GUEVARA IN CUBA: 1957 TO 1959 From: Armando M. Lago, Ph.D., Cuba. The Human Cost of Social Revolutions, unedited Manuscript pending publication. Information provided by the TRUTH RECOVERY ARCHIVE ON CUBA an undertaking of the FREE SOCIETY PROJECT, INC. The exact number of Che’s Cuban victims has not been verified, but include people he personally executed and those put to death under his orders. Che’s biographers consistently report that he sent thousands to the firing squad. Over 4,000 deaths are documented to have taken place in Cuba, mostly firing squad execution, in the first three years after Fidel Castro’s takeover (1959-1962). Che Guevara was one of the regime’s chief executioners during this period and is said to have acknowledged ordering "several thousand" executions. All took place without affording the victims fair trials and due process of law. The following list is not exhaustive and only includes cases for which historic reference is known. Names are cited as reported; dates and additional details for most are available. Combat deaths caused by Che in Cuba and killings in countries where he led guerrilla operations have not been tallied. 14 executed by Che in the Sierra Maestra during the anti-Batista guerrilla struggle (1957-1958): 1. ARISTIDIO 2. MANUEL CAPITÁN 3. JUAN CHANG 4. “BISCO” ECHEVARRÍA 5. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #1 6. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #2 7. EUTIMIO GUERRA 8. DIONISIO LEBRIGIO 9. JUAN LEBRIGIO 10. “EL NEGRO” NÁPOLES 11. “CHICHO” OSORIO 12. ONE UNIDENTIFIED TEACHER (“EL MAESTRO) 13.-14. 2 UNIDENTIFIED PEASANTS 10 executed in Santa Clara at Che’s orders in only two days (January 1959): 1. RAMÓN ALBA 2. JOSÉ BARROSO 3. JOAQUÍN CASILLAS 4. FÉLIX CRUZ 5. ALEJANDRO GARCÍA OLAYÓN 6. HÉCTOR MIRABAL 7. J. MIRABAL 8. FÉLIX MONTANO 9. CORNELIO ROJAS 10. VILALLA 156 executed at La Cabaña Fortress prison at Che Guevara’s orders: 1. VILAU ABREU 2. HUMBERTO AGUIAR 3. GERMÁN AGUIRRE 4. PELAYO ALAYÓN 5. JOSÉ LUIS ALFARO 6. PEDRO ALFARO 7. MARIANO ALONSO 8. JOSÉ ALVARO 9. ANIELLA 10. MARIO ARES POLO 11. JOSÉ RAMÓN BACALLAO 12. CEVERINO BARRIOS 13. EUGENIO BÉCQUER 14. FRANCISCO BÉCQUER 15. RAMÓN BISCET 16. ROBERTO CALZADILLA 17. EUFEMIO CANO 18. JUAN CAPOTE FIALLO 19. ANTONIO CARRALERO 20. GERTRUDIS CASTELLANOS 21. JOSÉ CASTAÑO QUEVEDO 22. RAÚL CASTAÑO 23. EUFEMIO CHALA 24. JOSÉ CHAMACE 25. JOSÉ CHAMIZO 26. RAÚL CLAUSELL 27. ÁNGEL CLAUSELL 28. DEMETRIO CLAUSELL 29. JOSÉ CLAUSELL 30. ELOY CONTRERAS 31. ALBERTO CORBO 32. EMILIO CRUZ 33. JUAN FELIPE CRUZ 34. ORESTES CRUZ 35. HUMBERTO CUEVAS 36. CUNY 37. ANTONIO DE BECHE 38. MATEO DELGADO 39. ARMANDO DELGADO 40. RAMÓN DESPAIGNE 41. JOSÉ DÍAZ CABEZAS 42. ANTONIO DUARTE 43. RAMÓN FERNÁNDEZ OJEDA 44. RUDY FERNÁNDEZ 45. FERRÁN ALFONSO 46. SALVADOR FERRERO 47. VICTOR FIGUEREDO 48. EDUARDO FORTE 49. UGARDE GALÁN 50. RAFAEL GARCÍA MUÑIZ 51. ADALBERTO GARCÍA 52. ALBERTO GARCÍA 53. JACINTO GARCÍA 54. EVELIO GASPAR 55. ARMADA GIL Y DIEZ CABEZAS 56. JOSÉ GONZÁLEZ MALAGÓN 57. EVARISTO GONZÁLEZ 58. EZEQUIEL GONZÁLEZ 59. SECUNDINO GONZÁLEZ 60. RICARDO GRAO 61. BONIFACIO GRASSO 62. RICARDO JOSÉ GRAU 63. OSCAR GUERRA 64. JULIÁN HERNÁNDEZ 65. FRANCISCO HERNÁNDEZ LEYVA 66. ANTONIO HERNÁNDEZ 67. GERARDO HERNÁNDEZ 68. OLEGARIO HERNÁNDEZ 69. SECUNDINO HERNÁNDEZ 70. JESÚS INSUA 71. ENRIQUE IZQUIERDO 72. OSMÍN JORRÍN 73. SILVINO JUNCO 74. ENRIQUE LA ROSA 75. IGNACIO LASAPARLA 76. JESÚS LAZO 77. ARIEL LIMA LAGO 78. RAÚL LÓPEZ VIDAL 79. ARMANDO MAS 80. ENERLIO MATA 81. ELPIDIO MEDEROS 82. JOSÉ MEDINAS 83. JOSÉ MESA 84. FIDEL MESQUÍA 85. JUAN MILIÁN 86. FRANCISCO MIRABAL 87. LUIS MIRABAL 88. ERNESTO MORALES 89. PEDRO MOREJÓN 90. DR. CARLOS MUIÑO, MD. 91. CÉSAR NECOLARDES ROJAS 92. VICTOR NECOLARDES ROJAS 93. JOSÉ NUÑEZ 94. VITERBO O'RREILLY 95. FÉLIX OVIEDO 96. MANUEL PANEQUE 97. PEDRO PEDROSO 98. RAFAEL PEDROSO 99. DIEGO PÉREZ CUESTA 100. JUAN PÉREZ 101. DIEGO PÉREZ CRELA 102. JOSÉ POZO 103. EMILIO PUEBLA 104. ALFREDO PUPO 105. SECUNDINO RAMÍREZ 106. RAMÓN RAMOS 107. PABLO RAVELO 108. RUBÉN REY 109. MARIO RISQUELME 110. FERNANDO RIVERA 111. PABLO RIVERA 112. MANUEL RODRÍGUEZ 113. MARCOS RODRÍGUEZ 114. NEMESIO RODRÍGUEZ 115. PABLO RODRÍGUEZ 116. RICARDO RODRÍGUEZ 117. JOSÉ SALDARA 118. PEDRO SANTANA 119. SERGIO SIERRA 120. JUAN SILVA 121. FAUSTO SILVA 122. ELPIDIO SOLER 123. JESÚS SOSA BLANCO 124. RENATO SOSA 125. SERGIO SOSA 126. PEDRO SOTO 127. OSCAR SUÁREZ 128. RAFAEL TARRAGO 129. TEODORO TELLEZ CISNEROS 130. FRANCISCO TELLEZ 131. JOSÉ TIN 132. FRANCISCO TRAVIESO 133. LEONARDO TRUJILLO 134. TRUJILLO 135. LUPE VALDÉS BARBOSA 136. MARCELINO VALDÉS 137. ANTONIO VALENTÍN 138. MANUEL VÁZQUEZ 139. SERGIO VÁZQUEZ 140. VERDECIA 141. DÁMASO ZAYAS *15 additional executions were reported by The New York Times (on 2/6/59, 2/8/59, 3/16/59, and 4/2/59), but names are unknown. TRUTH RECOVERY ARCHIVE ON CUBA an undertaking of the FREE SOCIETY PROJECT, INC. www.CubaArchive.org

http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm

Great source (*cough*), but I see your point. I havent read that much about Che. Point taken though. I still find it very fascinating at how he managed to operate in revolutionary activities for such a long time before finally being caught. He inspired many people, though probably for all the bad reasons ... though ruthless, he did help poor people, or that not true either?

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

oh look, im a bit of a devil's advocate on this one. i sure appreciate what che was trying to do, its just that (like most other communist revolutionaries) their methods were detestable. too many murders and murderers for me to take the whole che movement seriously.

i mean, at least karl never killed anyone!

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh look, im a bit of a devil's advocate on this one. i sure appreciate what che was trying to do, its just that (like most other communist revolutionaries) their methods were detestable. too many murders and murderers for me to take the whole che movement seriously. i mean, at least karl never killed anyone!

You know whats really sad? Che fought against capitalists (though he himself came from a rich Argentinian family, and he gave up that lifestyle to fight for poor people), but now, 40 years later, these same capitalists he fought against are making good money off his name, for example, with clothing products featuring his image, name, ideas, even on calendars. Very profitable.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

What's the point of posting an article and leaving, really? It's like saying "Look what I found, guys!" and, when everyone is paying attention at you, you decide not to say anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium He's the first person I think of when someone asks me to mention a good and influential communist figure, though he wasnt quite communist.

Damn, were the other communist figures that bad?!

I wish I could scan the most popular article on Che published in the Brazilian media this week. I don't really like to say things without being able to cite sources, so I added a small clip in Spanish.

According to the documentary featured in that article, Che wasn't exactly the most admirable person to have existed. In the beginning, he did it for the lulz and only became a "comunist" when he was in Guatemala, almost at random. Then he decided to frivolously fight and kill people.

When he was killed, in Bolivia, he was lynched by some old ladies after his death (which made me lol). Doesn't really sound like a charismatic chap...

Edit: Video removed - why the hell does it play automatically!? I've already set "autostart" as "false"

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Last edited by Lira on Oct-10-2007 at 01:02

quote:

Originally posted by Lira What's the point of posting an article and leaving, really? It's like saying "Look what I found, guys!" and, when everyone is paying attention at you, you decide not to say anything. Damn, were the other communist figures that bad?! I wish I could scan the most popular article on Che published in the Brazilian media this week. I don't really like to say things without being able to cite sources, so I added a small clip in Spanish. According to the documentary featured in that article, Che wasn't exactly the most admirable person to have existed. In the beginning, he did it for the lulz and only became a "comunist" when he was in Guatemala, almost at random. Then he decided to frivolously fight and kill people. When he was killed, in Bolivia, he was lynched by some old ladies after his death (which made me lol). Doesn't really sound like a charismatic chap... Edit: Video removed - why the hell does it play automatically!? I've already set "autostart" as "false"

I never understood why Che was romanticized when he was nothing but a stone cold murderer.

quote:

Che Guevara, Murderer Turns out the the "World's Greatest T-Shirt Salesman" is a murderer -- though anyone who puts historical fact ahead of "chic" already knew that. This, from an email from The Independent Institute: Ernesto "Che" Guevara (1928-1967), the Argentina-born revolutionary who helped Castro come to power in Cuba, has long been lionized by the hard left. Guevara's posthumous popularity has accelerated in recent years -- especially since the 2004 release of "The Motorcycle Diaries," a feature film based on his early autobiographical writings -- making him a crossover superstar whose likeness appears on countless T-shirts, posters and tattoos, and who has been cited as an inspiration for political dissidents from Latin America to Lebanon to Hong Kong. Yet the reality of Che Guevara's life is far different from the popular perception, as Independent Institute Senior Fellow Alvaro Vargas Llosa explains in a new article in the July 11 & 18 issue of THE NEW REPUBLIC. It's safe to assume that many people now sporting radical-chic Che T-shirts oppose capital punishment, but Che Guevara served as an executioner for Castro, as Guevara himself admitted in some of his diary entries, notes Vargas Llosa, author of LIBERTY FOR LATIN AMERICA. Guevara, for example, admitted to shooting Eutimio Guerra in January of 1957 because he suspected him of passing on information. He also admitted to having shot a peasant named Aristidio, although he wasn't certain he could justify that execution, as well as a man named Echevarría, the brother of a comrade. On the eve of victory for the revolution, Guevara ordered the execution of a couple dozen people in the central Cuban region of Santa Clara, according to Jaime Costa Vázquez (a.k.a. "El Catalán"), a former commander in the Cuban revolutionary army whom Vargas Llosa interviewed for the article. But Che Guevara's killing spree didn't reach its apex until after the corrupt Bautista regime collapsed and Castro put Guevara in charge of the San Carlos de La Cabaña prison. José Vilasuso, a lawyer and professor in Puerto Rico who had served with the group in charge of the judicial process at La Cabaña prison, told Vargas Llosa that one night in 1959 he witnessed the execution of seven political prisoners. Another witness, Javier Arzuaga, a clergyman more inclined toward the liberation theology of Leonardo Boff than the conservatism of the former Cardinal Ratzinger, told Vargas Llosa that Che Guevara never overturned a sentence. He said he personally witnessed 55 executions, including that of a young boy named Ariel Lima. Estimates of the number of executions of political prisoners during the six months that Che Guevara was in charge of La Cabaña vary. Economist Armando Lago has compiled a list of 179 executions. Pedro Corzo, who is making a documentary about Che Guevara, puts the number at 200. Vilasuso told Vargas Llosa that 400 political prisoners were executed under Guevara's command. Whether Che Guevara executed 400 political prisoners or "only" 200, it's hard to see how self-styled "progressives" can continue to justify their worship of the murderer. For those who refuse to blame the "idealistic" Che for these executions, which took place without regard for due process, Alvaro Vargas Llosa also notes Guevara's Taliban-like rule of the city of Sancti Spiritus in 1958, his ordering of his men to rob banks during the revolution, his rationalization of the Guanahacabibes labor camp, his negotiation with Khrushchev to acquire 42 Soviet missiles, half of them armed with nuclear warheads, his destruction of the Cuban economy, and his reckless revolutionary sojourns throughout Latin America and to the Congo, spreading violence and fostering only more misery. Those in search of a genuinely heroic Latin American reformer, Vargas Llosa notes, will find one in Juan Bautista Alberdi of 19th century Argentina. Alberdi helped depose Argentina's tyrant of that era (Juan Manuel Rosas) and introduced his country to the ideas of constitutionalism, open trade, greater immigration, and secure property rights -- which when implemented brought 70 years of prosperity to Argentina and did so without staining Alberdi's hands with blood.

>>Source<<

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The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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quote:

Originally posted by Lira I wish I could scan the most popular article on Che published in the Brazilian media this week. I don't really like to say things without being able to cite sources, so I added a small clip in Spanish. According to the documentary featured in that article, Che wasn't exactly the most admirable person to have existed. In the beginning, he did it for the lulz and only became a "comunist" when he was in Guatemala, almost at random. Then he decided to frivolously fight and kill people. When he was killed, in Bolivia, he was lynched by some old ladies after his death (which made me lol). Doesn't really sound like a charismatic chap... Edit: Video removed - why the hell does it play automatically!? I've already set "autostart" as "false"

Good video about Chancho. I was watching a report earlier where several pictures of him captured were shown. I was looking for them but had no luck. He was tied up in one of the pictures, moments before his death according to the report.

And indeed, he wasn't that charismatic and his dislike for other people, like black people or the Indians of Mexico, didn't help him win friends.