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St_Andrew
I <3 NYC



Registered: May 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Russia & 1930s Germany?

Inspired by this thread.

http://economist.com/world/europe/d...y_id=E1_RDPTVJS
quote:
Russia
The hardest word

Oct 12th 2006 | MOSCOW
From The Economist print edition
A murder, a grudge, deportations and what they say about Russia's worrying political direction. Is it time to use the f-word?

“PROVOCATION” is an old Soviet game that can be hard to follow. When two countries employ the same techniques, luring the other into useful folly, it is harder still. In the spat between Russia and Georgia, it has begun to seem that what looked like an overreaction by the Kremlin—and thus a victory, however pyrrhic, for the Georgians—may have a very different purpose and meaning.

The Kremlin loathes Georgia, once a cherished vassal, with the special wrath reserved for wayward loved ones. To the Russians, Mikhail Saakashvili, Georgia's president, is an American puppet, hell-bent on taking his country into NATO, and the arch-carrier of the germ of post-Soviet revolution. For his part, Mr Saakashvili is irate over Russia's meddlesome backing for South Ossetia and Abkhazia, two regions of Georgia that broke away in the early 1990s. Georgia's arrest last month of a handful of Russian intelligence officers (terrorists, insists Mr Saakashvili) may have been a counter-provocation, aimed at garnering international sympathy.

If that was the plan, it probably worked: the Russians went berserk. Even though the men were swiftly deported, Russia recalled its ambassador, evacuated other Russians, severed transport and postal links with Georgia—and then imposed a raft of punitive measures against the legions of ethnic Georgians (many of them Russian citizens) living and working in Russia itself.

In Moscow, hundreds have been arrested and deported (pictured above); celebrities with Georgian names harassed; Georgian-owned businesses raided and closed. The manager of one Georgian restaurant says the staff are in hiding; another says the water has been turned off. The police, meanwhile, asked Moscow schools for lists of children with Georgian surnames, though Dmitri Peskov, a Kremlin spokesman, terms the request a “disgusting” excess of zeal. Now we understand how Chechens living here feel, says a doctor, who like many Moscow Georgians is a refugee from Abkhazia.

New immigration laws, explicitly targeted against Georgians, are promised; so are restrictions on the remittances that help prop up Georgia's economy; Russians allege they contribute to its militarisation. Another hike in the price of Russian gas seems likely (there was one last winter, along with mysterious simultaneous explosions in both export pipelines). Mr Saakashvili may have underestimated the further damage the Kremlin can do to Georgia. He may also have over-estimated the outside help he can expect. “Russia sees Georgia as a bastion of the West,” he complains, “but the West doesn't.”

For all that, Georgia will survive the confrontation. But can Russia? The Kremlin's escalation of it is an extreme example of another Soviet habit Mr Putin has inherited: using foreign enemies as scapegoats and tools in domestic politics. Past targets have included America, Ukraine, and foreign do-gooders allegedly engaged in espionage. This row comes as anxiety mounts over the question of the succession to Mr Putin when his second (and supposedly final) presidential term ends in 2008. A foreign threat, even a bogus one, will help keep the electorate pliant, whatever the Kremlin decides to do.

This scaremongering is matched by the Kremlin's shifting stance towards xenophobic nationalism, already starkly manifest in a plague of racist murders by skinheads (often un- or under-punished). An anti-Caucasian riot in Kondopoga in northern Russia last month was what once would have been called a pogrom.

Until recently, the Kremlin has tried to “ride the tiger” of extreme nationalism, as Dmitri Trenin, of the Carnegie think-tank in Moscow, puts it, through a risky double strategy: portraying itself as a bulwark against extremism, but also trying to harness nationalist instincts for its own ends. It is widely thought to have created the nationalist Motherland party to siphon votes away from the Communists. (Motherland is now being merged with two other parties into what will become the main “opposition”—almost certainly a completely loyal one). Mr Putin seems now to be giving the tiger freer rein.

For example, he last week enjoined his ministers to protect the interests of “Russia's native population” against the ethnic gangs who, he said, control the street markets. Such gangs are “a reality”, says the Kremlin's Mr Peskov, in justification. But after a racist bombing in a Moscow market killed a dozen people in August, Mr Putin's remarks were at best inadvisable; and in what is—however much some ethnic Russians might wish otherwise—a multi-ethnic country, potentially disastrous.

So, in a different way, might be the growing squeeze on foreign energy firms. Big investments are running into trouble, and after years of dangling the carrot of outside involvement in the giant offshore Shtokman gasfield, Gazprom, the state-run gas giant, now says it will go it alone.

The state's attitude to both business and Georgia demonstrates Mr Putin's failure to create the “dictatorship of the law” that he once promised. Untrammelled by normal constraints such as an independent judiciary or a genuine opposition, the Kremlin makes and breaks laws as it pleases. The growth of racist violence is both evidence and result of a broader lawlessness. Lack of faith in government institutions, and especially in the police, says Eduard Ponarin of St Petersburg's European University, leads some to seek other forms of redress. A recent string of high-profile contract-killings—of a top central banker and of an engineer for a gas company that is in dispute with the government—are another sign of this lawlessness. On October 7th, Anna Politkovskaya, a journalist and campaigner (see our obituary), died in the same way.

According to some (including Mr Putin), her murder was another provocation, designed to discredit the Russian authorities whom she bravely criticised. But whoever killed her, Mr Putin shares the blame for having made independent journalism both rare and perilous.
Dictatorship of the lawless

Russia's huge size and troubled history make any comparisons risky. Yet some see historical parallels in present trends. Yegor Gaidar, a former prime minister, draws an analogy with inter-war Germany, which like post-Soviet Russia experienced economic chaos, then a period of stabilisation in which post-imperial nostalgia took hold. Vladimir Ryzhkov, one of the few remaining independent parliamentarians, worries that Mr Putin seems to be switching from an imperial idea of Russia towards one more resembling a “Reich”.

History also offers a term to describe the direction in which Russia sometimes seems to be heading: a word that captures the paranoia and self-confidence, lawlessness and authoritarianism, populism and intolerance, and economic and political nationalism that now characterise Mr Putin's administration. It is an over-used word, and a controversial one, especially in Russia. It is not there yet, but Russia sometimes seems to be heading towards fascism.

Old Post Oct-16-2006 21:35  Europe
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star-traveller
Kill All Humans



Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Amsterdam, NL

I don't like The Economist journal. I used to read British edition for while. It seems that the point of view in all their articles about Russia always depends on the amount of profit the West can gain.

If the profit > 0 they write in positive colors, if < 0, they condemn and rebuke everything.

It is not what I call an independent press media.

Last edited by star-traveller on Oct-17-2006 at 12:34

Old Post Oct-17-2006 12:08  Europe
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada



Wow, what a lame article. Did you know that there are about 10 MILLION illegal Georgian immigrants in Russia right now? Thats like the entire population of actual Georgia!!!

Last time I checked Russian economy is growing, and Russia is not invading other countries and not building up militarily like Germany did in 1930s, but quite the opposite - arms reductions.

That article is biased and bullshit ...


___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Old Post Oct-17-2006 22:45  Canada
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Groundhog Boy
Stupidity Offends Me



Registered: May 2005
Location: New York, NY

quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium

That article is biased and bullshit ...

So are most of your arguments. I find it both hilarious and sad how much of a hypocrite you are depending on if you're talking about the US or Russia. I was actually expecting more of a response from you based on the hypocrisy you showed in the other thread dealing with the issue of the Georgian immigrants. You disappointed me


___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

Old Post Oct-17-2006 23:03  United States
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium


Wow, what a lame article. Did you know that there are about 10 MILLION illegal Georgian immigrants in Russia right now? Thats like the entire population of actual Georgia!!!

Last time I checked Russian economy is growing, and Russia is not invading other countries and not building up militarily like Germany did in 1930s, but quite the opposite - arms reductions.

That article is biased and bullshit ...


If we threw in some hieroglyphics, little green men and shadowy government figures, would that work for yea?

jokin' of course...


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Oct-17-2006 23:06  Canada
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Groundhog Boy
So are most of your arguments. I find it both hilarious and sad how much of a hypocrite you are depending on if you're talking about the US or Russia. I was actually expecting more of a response from you based on the hypocrisy you showed in the other thread dealing with the issue of the Georgian immigrants. You disappointed me


The aliens and my other views have nothing to do with this. Please tell me where I am lying here:

"Did you know that there are about 10 MILLION illegal Georgian immigrants in Russia right now? Thats like the entire population of actual Georgia!!!

Last time I checked Russian economy is growing, and Russia is not invading other countries and not building up militarily like Germany did in 1930s, but quite the opposite - arms reductions."

Putin actually publicly condemned the journalist's murder. The easy solution is to blame him. He had nothing to gain murdering the journalist, absolutely nothing other than bad publicity. Hundreds of businessmen, politicians, journalists, rich Russian people get murdered in Russia every year. Its funny how the West is so quick to blame Putin on this, without even waiting for the investigation even to start!!!! Thats LAME! Your points about Putin is lame - how can someone expect Putin to be able to kind bodyguards and protect all 140 million citizens? You gotta be joking me ... grow out of your ignorance. All the solved prolific murders in last 15 years in Russia have been connected to greedy businessmen, mafia and robbery, and other political interests.

Its the western media's campaign to make Putin look bad - but in truth they got nothing on him other than their own opinions.


As for this Rodina pparty unification that this article is talking about - the article criticises Putin for not BREAKING LAWS to CLAMP DOWN on their freedoms and ban this party. That sounds like a call to do what these same westerners criticise of Putin - clammping down on democracy. The guy who wrote the article is a complete moron and idiot, with little logic ....


___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Old Post Oct-17-2006 23:22  Canada
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metalgearsolid
I am a sexist



Registered: Apr 2005
Location: For you neo/

quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium


Wow, what a lame article. Did you know that there are about 10 MILLION illegal Georgian immigrants in Russia right now? Thats like the entire population of actual Georgia!!!

Last time I checked Russian economy is growing, and Russia is not invading other countries and not building up militarily like Germany did in 1930s, but quite the opposite - arms reductions.

That article is biased and bullshit ...


Wow, did you know that over ten million illegal Mexican immigrants live in USa right now? That is like ten percent of the pop.

Arms reduction? Even Putin said he was going to build the military up because Russia needs it. And look in Chechnya? The war/occupation is going to last for a very long time. The Russian's have no other plan than to stay there until Chechan's die out or surrender to the Russians.

Old Post Oct-17-2006 23:24 
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada



Mr Kozlov, top Russian government banking supervisor official was murdered a month ago. He was appointed by Putin. Did Putin kill his own minister?

You see the logic?


___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Old Post Oct-17-2006 23:25  Canada
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium
The aliens and my other views have nothing to do with this.


Dude, he didn't say a thing about aliens.

quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium Please tell me where I am lying here


What he said clearly went over your head.


___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Old Post Oct-17-2006 23:30  United States
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by metalgearsolid


Wow, did you know that over ten million illegal Mexican immigrants live in USa right now? That is like ten percent of the pop.

Arms reduction? Even Putin said he was going to build the military up because Russia needs it. And look in Chechnya? The war/occupation is going to last for a very long time. The Russian's have no other plan than to stay there until Chechan's die out or surrender to the Russians.


Is that why Russian army was withdrawn from Chechnya and only the police and border guards, FSB are left? Is that why Russian government imposed a amnesty to fighters, and over a thousand has returned to peaceful life already. Is it why Russian government has signed a plan to contribute 2 billion dollars into rebuildiing Chechnya over the next 10 years? Is that why half of Grozny has already been rebuilt?

Oh, wait ... western media doesnt want to show the good things in Russia. Phone, water, internet has been connected to most of Chechnya. Roads are rebuilt, jobs in construction are created, oil industry is rebuilt. You should do some research buddy before lashing out with those dumb remarks.

Even the Chechen people in 2002 referendum called for remaining within Russia.

In fact, last time I checked there are no bombings, suicide attack in Chechnya in over a year - for most part the country is getting back to peaceful rebuilding.

Look at Iraq - now THATS where the problems are, where the violence is current, bombings, murder ... etc


___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Old Post Oct-17-2006 23:33  Canada
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Groundhog Boy
Stupidity Offends Me



Registered: May 2005
Location: New York, NY

quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium


The aliens and my other views have nothing to do with this. Please tell me where I am lying here:

"Did you know that there are about 10 MILLION illegal Georgian immigrants in Russia right now? Thats like the entire population of actual Georgia!!!

Last time I checked Russian economy is growing, and Russia is not invading other countries and not building up militarily like Germany did in 1930s, but quite the opposite - arms reductions."

Putin actually publicly condemned the journalist's murder. The easy solution is to blame him. He had nothing to gain murdering the journalist, absolutely nothing other than bad publicity. Hundreds of businessmen, politicians, journalists, rich Russian people get murdered in Russia every year. Its funny how the West is so quick to blame Putin on this, without even waiting for the investigation even to start!!!! Thats LAME! Your points about Putin is lame - how can someone expect Putin to be able to kind bodyguards and protect all 140 million citizens? You gotta be joking me ... grow out of your ignorance. All the solved prolific murders in last 15 years in Russia have been connected to greedy businessmen, mafia and robbery, and other political interests.

Its the western media's campaign to make Putin look bad - but in truth they got nothing on him other than their own opinions.


As for this Rodina pparty unification that this article is talking about - the article criticises Putin for not BREAKING LAWS to CLAMP DOWN on their freedoms and ban this party. That sounds like a call to do what these same westerners criticise of Putin - clammping down on democracy. The guy who wrote the article is a complete moron and idiot, with little logic ....

Wow, I didn't even mention aliens or Putin at all. I just said that based on your comments that you were a hypocrite. You know, this thread) and your statements all over this forum about the US.

The aliens must have abductd me, probed my undeveloped thoughts and handed them over to you for you to have inferred even close to what you did about my opinions on Russia, which are few and far between. I honestly don't know that much about what's going on there because to be honest, I don't really care until issues start arising that affect me. There are far too many other things, being an American that half the world hates because of our leaders stupid decisions, that affect me in this world than part of some country that hasn't been a threat to us in at least 15 years.


___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

Old Post Oct-18-2006 01:21  United States
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Groundhog Boy
So are most of your arguments. I find it both hilarious and sad how much of a hypocrite you are depending on if you're talking about the US or Russia. I was actually expecting more of a response from you based on the hypocrisy you showed in the other thread dealing with the issue of the Georgian immigrants. You disappointed me


So are you saying that the illegally living in Russia Georgians should just continue illegally earning money, not paying taxes, breaking laws and helping organized crime and their own dictatorship at home? THEY ARE MANY PEOPLE LIKE MY FAMILY THAT FOOUGHT HARD TO WIN CITIZENSHIP, PAYING A LOT OF MONEY AND PUTTING A LOT OF DEDICATION AND HARD WORK TO EARN THE RIGHT TO LEGALLY LIVE AND WORK IN THE COUNTRY (I became a Canadian citizen in 2002). These illegals think they deserve the same rights because they're breaking laws, and living easy lives compared to others who spent years trying to become citizens. Am I a hypocrite now? I went through this shit, to become a Canadian citizen is a lot of work, money and dedication.

These aliens/illegals spend years not paying taxes, taking advantage of the system THAT I PAY TAXES FOR. WHERE'S THE JUSTICE???


___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Old Post Oct-18-2006 01:42  Canada
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