YOU KNEW I WAS GOING TO REPLY TO THIS!

VIDEO #1: This could've been done by anyone. Local mafia, Russian military, Chechen rebels. The lady getting slapped in the beginning seemed ethnic Russian to me. For the child, the camera doesnt show around much, escept concentrating on the wound, which doesnt say much about who committed the crime. Both sides have committed crimes in the war. For that, this video is very vague to say that the Russians did it.


VIDEO #2: First of all, Stalin was an ethnic Georgian. He also deported and killed many of his own Georgians, Ukrainians, and EVEN ethnic Russians. In 1920s, peasants in Russian region of Tambov revolted against the communist regime, demanding land and rights. Stalin sent in the troops, which brutally massacred many villages, sent on fire farms, burning grain and raping women. In the end, over 100,000 of them died. In World War II, Stalin ordered officers to shoot retreating Russian soldiers. When Leningrad was about to become in blockade, he ORDERED TO SHOOT ANY PEOPLE LEAVING THE CITY - he forbid anyone to leave, and many thousands of its citizens were starved to death by the blockade. And there's more examples. So the point is, the brutal communist regime went against everyone, and sometimes against ethnic groups like Chechens because they posed threat to the central regime. It would be really dumb to deport Russia to Russia (Siberia), so in Russia he just massacred the civilians.

First of all, you cant really take what Soviets did into a fair comparison. Everyone knows they committed crimes, even my grand grand father was murdered by the NKVD bastards with no cause. They were terrible dictators.

Secondly, its what wars do. There's probably a ton of footage for war crimes of any conflict going on around the world. All participants commit murder, sometimes intentionally for their own personal benefit.


VIDEO #3: True, there were Russian war crimes, I wouldn't deny it. Russians have killed both ethnic Chechens and ethnic Russians, especially in the areas of bitter resistance to advancing Russian forces, or in areas where civilians were suspected of harbouring or helping the rebels. Terrible crimes, yes I know. However, notice how the Russian armoured cars are passing and not shooting the civilians and not questioning them. The Russian army is not all that brutal. BTW, Chechen rebels had their own civilian deaths and murders, though not as much as the Russian army did. Chechen rebels had their own massacres, and they used the same techniques so that their murders could be blamed on thee Russian forces.

I saw some great videos back home from videotapes seized from Chechnya where rebels, dressed in uniforms taken from dead Russian soldiers would videotape themselves before and after an attack speaking Chechen, laughing and such. Then they would drive around inn Russian cars, pulling over drivers, taking their money, and beating some up, speaking in Russian at the time. ---- There are plenty of examples ...

Video's description of genocide is very vague - by their definition you might as well say that Americans have committed genocide in Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan too. Any war between countries can be labeled as genocide then.

Plus, dont forget, what happened in Chechnya in 1996-1999 between the wars was just as brutal. In that occassion, their own Chechen people murdered, pillaged and abused their own republic, just when they had the chance to do something good, and instead they continued what they did in the war.


Russia is not trying to wipe Chechens out. Sure they used brutal force in the early years, but they have since given Chechnya autonomy, their self-governing republic to set its own laws. They're rebuilding the region, schools, mosques. I highly doubt that the tortures and rapes of women and children still go on today. And if they ever do, the policemen are prosecuted accordingly. There's been couple highlight cases in recent years where Russian officers were punished in court of law for murdering civilians. In 2005, a Russian internal police officer in Chechnya got drunk and he shot couple civilians. Well, now he is serving 2o-something years in the notoriously bad Russian prison.

When I'll visit Russia in the upcoming years, I'll see if I can visit Chechnya to provide you with some pictures of positive progress, and see if I can find online photos showing the same areas previosly demolished. You should compare what the country was in 2003 to now and later. Grozny is getting rebuilt as we speak.


Remember, Russia no longer has an army in Chechnya - they withdrew it in favour of local police and special Russian task forces that patrol for any rebels that still fight in the mountains. And border guards.

Cosncription into military service in Russia for fighting in a war is over this year. From now on the conscripts would not go to war, only the contractors do. And now you have to go through 12 month training first before proceeding to anything else in the military.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

But enough with excuses - the war in Chechnya did involve many Russian war crimes. Many innocent people died. The reasoning behind the war is cloudy too - its too complicated to discuss. Certainly it should have been avoided.

If you give Chechnya independence now, the same thing will happen to it as what happened in Afghanistan after Soviets withdrew - radicals will take over and oppress people even more. Women will become property, rights and freedoms will be limited, crime and corruption will explode, mafia will do good business ... what do you suggest? Honestly, freedom is out of the question for now. Its not going to happen either way - Chechnya cannot afford any more conflicts, and Russia will not let it - this will give a domino effect and the whole country will collapse. Chechnya needs to strengthen and rebuild, and I believe if it remains within Russia, it will have the same opportunities and levels of prosperity as other regions. Way better than being consumed by dictatorship like in Turkmenistan or under Taliban, for example.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium YOU KNEW I WAS GOING TO REPLY TO THIS!

check and mate.

The war in Chenchya was a huge money laundery for the somebody in the previous government. Nobody was really caring what is going on there in the main part of Russia.
The only time when you would think about it is when you are male and you've just celebrated your 18th b-day. No wonder why Russians solidiers made such a terrible things, you should SEE by your self who were fighting there on Russia's side. Conscripts mostly called from the villages without any proper education. It was really terrible.

My father used to scare me that he will send me as a conscript there, whenever I had some problems with my studying

But I was agree with Putin's policy of stopping this war.
I believe it's much safer now in this region.

Last edited by star-traveller on Oct-21-2006 at 13:50

AN INDEPENDENT CHECHNYA!

Well I'm not heavily in the subject at this moment, but those chechens are fuking crazy Best guerilla group ever! Russia should let them go, not even the Russians like them and Russia wants them to be annex them. Russia should have let it go along time ago and just admit they lost!

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton College tuition should be free, so should healthcare.

I think that Russia shouldn't have been involved in this war at all.

But withdrawing troops when they are in the middle of the conflict is a bad idea. At that time the region was full of terrorists who posed a real threat to Russia.

This war was definitely a mistake. It has made harm for people on both sides.

Arnt the terrorists being supported by the Americans? LOL and it's true. America is a great country.

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover AN INDEPENDENT CHECHNYA! Well I'm not heavily in the subject at this moment, but those chechens are fuking crazy Best guerilla group ever! Russia should let them go, not even the Russians like them and Russia wants them to be annex them. Russia should have let it go along time ago and just admit they lost!

To tell you the truth, and many experts will back me up on this, if Russia gives Chechnya independence (it already withdrew the army), then these radicals will spread across Caucasus and set off waves of violence and their goal is to split Russia, Georgia and other regions and form an Islamic republic bound by shariah. I've even read it on their kavkaz.org website.

True, this guerilla resistance is very fierce, they were fucking up young inexperienced Russian conscripts pretty bad. I cant imagine the fear in the troops, and how'd stay normal and wouldn't commit any crimes. Chechen guerillas are very fierce, they've always terrorized the Russian forces, ever since Russia sets foot in Chechnya in 1815.

There's a reason why Beslan was chosen by Chechen terrorists - they didnt just attack Russian mainland, that would be too easy and only support the Russian cause - they attacked an OSSETIAN school, in Ossetia, to try to instigate sentiment against the Russians to blame them for deaths of the children. Chechen guerillas are very brutal. They want to splinter Russia, those bastards are very clever.\


The rebels won't stop. They said on their main website. Their goal to unite the whole Caucasus under a Muslim shariah law - and in 1999, when they attempted to invade Dagestan even though they held a de facto independence (which wasnt enough to Chechen radicals), it clearly showed what the guerillas wanted.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium The rebels won't stop. They said on their main website. Their goal to unite the whole Caucasus under a Muslim shariah law - and in 1999, when they attempted to invade Dagestan even though they held a de facto independence (which wasnt enough to Chechen radicals), it clearly showed what the guerillas wanted.

That enough right there is enough to put a stop to these muslims. HOW DARE THEY think that this back ward ass Shariah law will ever be accepted by anyone other than backward non-progressive thinking people.