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Capitalizt
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Registered: Feb 2005
Location: USA
Why Socialism Failed

This is a huge article, so I'm just posting the first section. If you aren't familiar with the works of Mises, Hayek, or Rothbard, you should be.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard132.html

This article was originally published in The Review of Austrian Economics in 1991, during the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The End of Socialism and the Calculation Debate Revisited

by Murray N. Rothbard

At the root of the dazzling revolutionary implosion and collapse of socialism and central planning in the "socialist bloc" is what everyone concedes to be a disastrous economic failure. The peoples and the intellectuals of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union are crying out not only for free speech, democratic assembly, and glasnost, but also for private property and free markets. And yet, if I may be pardoned a moment of nostalgia, four-and-a-half-decades ago, when I entered graduate school, the economics Establishment of that era was closing the book on what had been for two decades the famed "socialist calculation debate." And they had all decided, left, right, and center, that there was not a thing economically wrong with socialism: that socialism's only problems, such as they might be, were political. Economically, socialism could work just as well as capitalism.

Mises and the Challenge of Calculation

Before Ludwig von Mises raised the calculation problem in his celebrated article in 1920,[1] everyone, socialists and non-socialists alike, had long realized that socialism suffered from an incentive problem. If, for example, everyone under socialism were to receive an equal income, or, in another variant, everyone was supposed to produce "according to his ability" but receive "according to his needs," then, to sum it up in the famous question: Who, under socialism, will take out the garbage? That is, what will be the incentive to do the grubby jobs, and, furthermore, to do them well? Or, to put it another way, what would be the incentive to work hard and be productive at any job?

The traditional socialist answer held that the socialist society would transform human nature, would purge it of selfishness, and remold it to create a New Socialist Man. That new man would be devoid of any selfish, or indeed any self-determined, goals; his only wish would be to work as hard and as eagerly as possible to achieve the goals and obey the orders of the socialist State. Throughout the history of socialism, socialist ultras, such as the early Lenin and Bukharin under "War Communism," and later Mao Tse-tung and Che Guevara, have sought to replace material by so-called "moral" incentives. This notion was properly and wittily ridiculed by Alexander Gray as "the idea that the world may find its driving force in a Birthday Honours List (giving to the King, if necessary, 165 birthdays a year)."[2] At any rate, the socialists soon found that voluntary methods could hardly yield them the New Socialist Man. But even the most determined and bloodthirsty methods could not avail to create this robotic New Socialist Man. And it is a testament to the spirit of freedom that cannot be extinguished in the human breast that the socialists continued to fail dismally, despite decades of systemic terror.

But the uniqueness and the crucial importance of Mises's challenge to socialism is that it was totally unrelated to the well-known incentive problem. Mises in effect said: All right, suppose that the socialists have been able to create a mighty army of citizens all eager to do the bidding of their masters, the socialist planners. What exactly would those planners tell this army to do? How would they know what products to order their eager slaves to produce, at what stage of production, how much of the product at each stage, what techniques or raw materials to use in that production and how much of each, and where specifically to locate all this production? How would they know their costs, or what process of production is or is not efficient?

Mises demonstrated that, in any economy more complex than the Crusoe or primitive family level, the socialist planning board would simply not know what to do, or how to answer any of these vital questions. Developing the momentous concept of calculation, Mises pointed out that the planning board could not answer these questions because socialism would lack the indispensable tool that private entrepreneurs use to appraise and calculate: the existence of a market in the means of production, a market that brings about money prices based on genuine profit-seeking exchanges by private owners of these means of production. Since the very essence of socialism is collective ownership of the means of production, the planning board would not be able to plan, or to make any sort of rational economic decisions. Its decisions would necessarily be completely arbitrary and chaotic, and therefore the existence of a socialist planned economy is literally "impossible" (to use a term long ridiculed by Mises's critics)."
_________________________________________________

If you have an hour or so to dig into the rest of the article (complicated but educational stuff), here ya go.

Last edited by Capitalizt on Dec-11-2006 at 20:37

Old Post Dec-11-2006 19:47  United States
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Krypton
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Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

I might use this as a topic for a future paper.

Old Post Dec-12-2006 05:41  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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Lilith
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Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats

You might want to modernise it a little before you write a paper on it, Russian communism might have failed but the current reality of the former sov-block states doesnt seem to have brought them a lot of joy either.
It would also be worth investigating the comparison between soviet states and current communist ones like China, Cuba and North Korea, out of those three China is positively booming.

Old Post Dec-12-2006 05:53 
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occrider
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Registered: Oct 2000
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Who, to this day, argues for pure socialism as a viable economic system of governance? Who, to this day, argues for pure capitalism as a viable economic system of governance? You think the US exhibits the qualities of pure capitalism? Think again my friend as SOX 404 is creating so much of a regulatory nightmare that most IPOs are nowadays migrating to the London or Hong Kong stock exchange. China is, in many ways, more capitalistic than most western nations in several respects. Compound this with the fact that many socialistic Scandanavian countires are, and historically have been, outperforming the US along with much of the Western world provokes me to ask you what your point is?

You can't mix and match ideological socialism with empirical socialism because more often than not, they are inherently different. You're ignoring the simple fact that pure socialism has never existed and neither has pure capitalism. Therefore comparing varying shades of gray to dispute the grander ideology would seem foolhardy.


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Old Post Dec-12-2006 07:53  United States
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Capitalizt
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2005
Location: USA

quote:
It would also be worth investigating the comparison between soviet states and current communist ones like China, Cuba and North Korea, out of those three China is positively booming.


China is certainly an interesting place these days...a political dictatorship with an almost completely free-market economy. I read that the Chinese are building a new city the size of Philadelphia every 3-4 weeks. It's truly astounding what happens when government removes its claws from the wallets of the people isn't it? I'm hoping this prosperity will eventually lead to a political revolution.



quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Who, to this day, argues for pure socialism as a viable economic system of governance? Who, to this day, argues for pure capitalism as a viable economic system of governance? You think the US exhibits the qualities of pure capitalism?


Of course not...The US is a horrible mess economically. We are much further down the road to socialism than anyone realizes. Government at all levels is approaching 50% of GDP, and our national debt is going to hit 9 trillion dollars before Bush leaves office (currently $8.7 trillion) This so-called party of "limited government" made a bad situation much worse.


quote:

You can't mix and match ideological socialism with empirical socialism because more often than not, they are inherently different. You're ignoring the simple fact that pure socialism has never existed and neither has pure capitalism. Therefore comparing varying shades of gray to dispute the grander ideology would seem foolhardy.


True, pure socialism has never existed. AND IT NEVER WILL!

Socialism will never succeed because it is in fundamental opposition to the structure of reality. This was the point of the article. Even if we were to overcome its huge conflicts with human nature (the incentive problem), the system is doomed to fail because there is simply no way for a system of "collective ownership" (central planning) to work on a national scale (the calculation problem).

No matter how beautiful the theory is, in reality, a functional and prosperous socialist state is literally impossible.

Recommended Reading

Last edited by Capitalizt on Dec-13-2006 at 23:58

Old Post Dec-12-2006 13:12  United States
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St_Andrew
I <3 NYC



Registered: May 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Compound this with the fact that many socialistic Scandanavian countires are, and historically have been, outperforming the US along with much of the Western world provokes me to ask you what your point is?


I have seen this a couple of times, and I must step in to correct you. Scandinavia has high taxes, but their markets, in general, are very free (though there is obviously lots of room for improvement).

Old Post Dec-13-2006 21:32  Europe
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BiG-_BoSS
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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mockba, Ru

quote:
Originally posted by Capitalizt
China is certainly an interesting place these days...a political dictatorship with an almost completely free-market economy. I read that the Chinese are building a new city the size of Philadelphia every 3-4 weeks. It's truly astounding what happens when government removes its claws from the wallets of the people isn't it? I'm hoping this prosperity will eventually lead to a political revolution.



Why is it an importance to you of China's government? They are more effective and productive than that of AMerica's.

Old Post Dec-13-2006 22:44  Russia
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BiG-_BoSS
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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mockba, Ru

quote:
Originally posted by St_Andrew
I have seen this a couple of times, and I must step in to correct you. Scandinavia has high taxes, but their markets, in general, are very free (though there is obviously lots of room for improvement).


Doesn't matter. They still beat that of US way of things.

Old Post Dec-13-2006 22:45  Russia
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_Ocean_Drive_
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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Iwate

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Who, to this day, argues for pure socialism as a viable economic system of governance? Who, to this day, argues for pure capitalism as a viable economic system of governance? You think the US exhibits the qualities of pure capitalism? Think again my friend as SOX 404 is creating so much of a regulatory nightmare that most IPOs are nowadays migrating to the London or Hong Kong stock exchange. China is, in many ways, more capitalistic than most western nations in several respects. Compound this with the fact that many socialistic Scandanavian countires are, and historically have been, outperforming the US along with much of the Western world provokes me to ask you what your point is?

You can't mix and match ideological socialism with empirical socialism because more often than not, they are inherently different. You're ignoring the simple fact that pure socialism has never existed and neither has pure capitalism. Therefore comparing varying shades of gray to dispute the grander ideology would seem foolhardy.


+1


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Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time.

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Old Post Dec-13-2006 23:53  Japan
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MrSquirrel
Auf Wiedersehen



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: In a Tree.

Do not try and argue the pureness of any ism with the occrider.

He will put the beatdown on you faster than you can say "free market".

MrS


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Old Post Dec-14-2006 01:00  United Nations
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George Smiley
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Capitalizt, tell ya what mate, you come over to England and try catch a train somewhere, then go to Europe where it's mainly publicly funded and tell me whether free markets are better than central markets!

(You might wanna start saving your pennies tho for the UK leg of your trip!)

Old Post Dec-17-2006 16:27  England
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ali92
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Fishtown, Philadelphia

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Capitalizt, tell ya what mate, you come over to England and try catch a train somewhere, then go to Europe where it's mainly publicly funded and tell me whether free markets are better than central markets!

(You might wanna start saving your pennies tho for the UK leg of your trip!)
What do you mean?

Old Post Dec-17-2006 22:39  United Nations
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