I was reading "Production Mixing Mastering With Waves" and the author suggests the following settings for a dance song kick track:

Attack 20ms
Release 50 ms

The reasons given for each setting are as follows:

"What we are effectively doing by using a 20ms attack time, is allowing the initial 20ms of the kick sample to come through un-compressed before being pinned down by the C1. The C1 immediately acts on the signal after a 20ms delay and the rest of the kick sample is reduced in gain. This effectively makes the first 20ms of the kick louder, meaning it punches through that short duration and gives more attack.

A 50ms release time is used on the C1. 50ms is short enough so that the gain reduction on the compressor snaps back to 0db before the next strike of the kick drum. If the release is set too long, the compressor works very slowly on the signal and doesn't allow the next consecutive strike of the kick to come through with attack."

Now, when I was reading the "Dance Music Manual" by Rick Snoman, the author suggests faster settings for the attack, his suggestion is 1-5ms. What are your thoughts? What do you think is a more appropriate setting for the attack stage of the compressor for a trance kick?

When it comes to the release setting, doesn't 50ms seems a bit too fast?
In the first book I mentioned the dance track is at 136BPM, which means a kick will occur approximately every 440ms. Keeping this in mind, a hypothetical release setting of 200ms will achieve what the author is trying to accomplish, namely, have the compressor's gain reduction return to 0db by the time the next kick occurs. Why use a much faster setting of 50ms then?

I'm just trying to understand why these particular settings were chosen.

Hopefully someone here can give me a more detailed explanation.

Thanks!

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Well... i would typically solo the kick, and start the attack at zero.. and slowly increase it.

at zero, the comp bites off the initial 'thwack'... but as i increase the value, i find that nice happy place where the thwack gets through, and the rest of the kick gets compressed.

opposite with the release... start with a large value.. and bring it in so the gain reduction gets back to zero before the next kick.

I think the 50 ms suggestion on the release is so in case you execute a kick roll or something, your kick times will decrease to 220ms, 110ms, etc...

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Last edited by CReddick on Jan-19-2007 at 20:42

You're not trying to get the compressor to cut off just in time for the next kick. The compressor is REDUCING your gain, so you want it to cut off as quickly as possible (i.e. as soon as the transient is over) if your aim is to maximize overall track gain.

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the aim is to make the kick punchier silly diginuts.

setup an a/b in c1 and see which u like better.

its all about setting up an a/b with the gain adjusted to be the same with compressors.

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Last edited by mysticalninja on Jan-20-2007 at 01:36

Long releases don't make a kick punchier. In fact, compression of any kind doesn't make a kick punchier, if anything it makes one less punchy.

*Edit - I now see the word "punching" in the original quotation, but that's really horrible terminology, and the advice sucks anyway unless you're working with an acoustic bassdrum or some really muddy electronic one. Any decent kick will already be loudest during the first 20-50 ms, so trying to use a compressor to do the same thing is just going to kill the kick.

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Last edited by DigiNut on Jan-20-2007 at 02:09

There is no general setting, and dance music is a very broad word which covers a hell of a lot of potential settings.

I had years of this crap when studying, where 'this setting is for this' and 'this fits with this', and have encountered it in so many studios its not even remotely funny.
Honestly, its all wank.

What is appropriate? It is completely subjective and open to individual interpretation. Whatever sounds right.
Use your ears to what sounds right for the instrument and more importantly fits in with the track you are trying to construct. Compression does not just change the dynamics, it changes the tone and timbre of a sound also and works as an effect as well as it does as a gain reduction tool. Turn the dials, and if something sounds good to you, then use it.

I would love to make a compressor with no numbers on- just 'more' and 'less' on each knob, then it might stop fucknuts preaching in books like it is some sort of exact science. In fact, I might modify one in my rack to do that

Learn the rules so you can break them.

quote:

Originally posted by Freak There is no general setting, and dance music is a very broad word which covers a hell of a lot of potential settings. I had years of this crap when studying, where 'this setting is for this' and 'this fits with this', and have encountered it in so many studios its not even remotely funny. Honestly, its all wank. What is appropriate? It is completely subjective and open to individual interpretation. Whatever sounds right. Use your ears to what sounds right for the instrument and more importantly fits in with the track you are trying to construct. Compression does not just change the dynamics, it changes the tone and timbre of a sound also and works as an effect as well as it does as a gain reduction tool. Turn the dials, and if something sounds good to you, then use it. I would love to make a compressor with no numbers on- just 'more' and 'less' on each knob, then it might stop fucknuts preaching in books like it is some sort of exact science. In fact, I might modify one in my rack to do that Learn the rules so you can break them.

this can be applied to so many of the questions out there....

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut compression of any kind doesn't make a kick punchier, if anything it makes one less punchy.

you are so so wrong

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Any decent kick will already be loudest during the first 20-50 ms, so trying to use a compressor to do the same thing is just going to kill the kick.

i think most big producers will agree its rare to use a kick without compressing it at all.. the punch in the kick is really important.

most samples you get are either raw from drum machines or drum kits (i.e. not enough dynamics for dance music) or off other records (i.e. already limited so lacking in dynamics)

if you think some people are using 9db or more gain reduction in limiting and compression on their masters, and the kick's the most prominant element, that means the kick they've used might have as much as 5-9db's of attack above the body of the sound - where a sampled kick is usually squashed right down

so it's actually quite rare you can even get hold of a kick or snare which doesn't require some degree of dynamics processing just to get it working properly

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Last edited by mysticalninja on Jan-20-2007 at 05:11

I just tweak my sampler to cut the kick off just after it hits the low end. That's all that such compression does. It doesn't make the kick more powerful as much as it makes it snappier. The effect, I'll admit is a nice one.

The real punch comes from the EQing.

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quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja you are so so wrong i think most big producers will agree its rare to use a kick without compressing it at all.. the punch in the kick is really important. most samples you get are either raw from drum machines or drum kits (i.e. not enough dynamics for dance music) or off other records (i.e. already limited so lacking in dynamics)

I thought dynamics is exactly what you eliminate by compressing, anyone?

it can be both, you can use a compressor as an expander. if you had the attack at 0 youd be reducing dynamics. with a decent attack theres a moment before the compressor kicks in so its louder for the attack then rest if your threshold and ratio settings are right, so youve just increased the loudest point to softest point ratio of the kick, there by increasing dynamics.

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Last edited by mysticalninja on Jan-20-2007 at 13:34

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja it can be both, you can use a compressor as an expander. if you had the attack at 0 youd be reducing dynamics. with a decent attack theres a moment before the compressor kicks in so its louder for the attack then rest if your threshold and ratio settings are right, so youve just increased the loudest point to softest point ratio of the kick, there by increasing dynamics.

I see, i didn't think about it that way, propably because i don't use the compressor for that purpose.

For mantaining or raising the level of the attack without raising the bass part of the kick i would usally resort to an equalizer.