Become a part of the TranceAddict community!Frequently Asked Questions - Please read this if you haven'tSearch the forums
TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Are Saudis waging an oil-price war on Iran?
  Last Thread   Next Thread
Share
Author
Thread    Post A Reply
star-traveller
Kill All Humans



Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Are Saudis waging an oil-price war on Iran?

quote:
Are Saudis waging an oil-price war on Iran?
Falling fuel costs probably not a coincidence, oil traders say


ANALYSIS
By Robert Windrem
Investigative producer
NBC News
Updated: 12:13 p.m. ET Jan. 26, 2007


Robert Windrem
Investigative producer

Oil traders and others believe that the Saudi decision to let the price of oil tumble has more to do with Iran than economics.

Their belief has been reinforced in recent days as the Saudi oil minister has steadfastly refused calls for a special meeting of OPEC and announced that the nation is going to increase its production, which will send the price down even farther.

Saudi Oil Minister Ibrahim al-Naimi even said during a recent trip to India that oil prices are headed in the "right direction."

Not for the Iranians.

Moreover, the traders believe the Saudis are not doing this alone, that the other Sunni-dominated oil producing countries and the U.S. are working together, believing it will hurt majority-Shiite Iran economically and create a domestic crisis for Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, whose popularity at home is on the wane. The traders also believe (with good reason) that the U.S. is trying to tighten the screws on Iran financially at the same time the Saudis are reducing the Islamic Republic’s oil revenues.

For the Saudis, who fear Iran’s religious, geopolitical and nuclear aspirations, the decision to lower the price of oil has a number of benefits, the biggest being to deprive Iran of hard currency. It also may create unrest in a country that is its rival on a number of levels and permits the Saudis to show the U.S. that military action may not be necessary.

The Saudis firmly and publicly deny this, saying it’s all about economics. Not everyone believes them.

“If under normal circumstances, the price of oil was falling this dramatically [17% in the last few months], Saudi Arabia would have already called for a special OPEC meeting,” says one oil trader. “It’s got to be something else and that something else has to be Iran.”

Costs higher in Iran
The trader notes that Iran, OPEC’s second largest producer, is “in trouble” both in the short and long term. Iran’s oil reserves, he notes, are declining more rapidly than Saudi Arabia’s and are more difficult to extract. While a barrel of oil costs the Saudis $2-3 to get out of the ground and to market, that same barrel costs Iran as much as $15-18.

“Iran does have some oil that costs them $8-10 but most of it is in that upper range,” he said.

Moreover, Iran has a large domestic market for oil, particularly fuel oil, which Saudi Arabia, with its smaller population and milder climate, does not.

Perhaps more important, because Iran has limited refining capability, it must import more than 40 percent its gasoline, making it the second largest importer of gasoline in the world after the United States, according to the Department of Energy’s Energy Information Agency.

And since Iran sells gasoline at a rate comparable to the rest of the Gulf states — around 33 cents a gallon — it must subsidize the price on a massive scale. In fact, say traders, Iran is paying about $1.50 per gallon to subsidize domestic gasoline consumption — the world market price of gasoline minus the tiny price per gallon — a practice that is costing Iran billions of dollars annually and eating up most of the state-run oil company’s discretionary funds.

Iran has other problems that make it vulnerable. Inflation is officially running at 17 percent, the highest since the revolution, and unemployment is at 11 percent. U.S. intelligence, though, believes the real figures are much higher, with inflation as high as 50 percent and joblessness much higher among the country's restless youth). In addition, capital outflow is estimated at $50 billion annually and budget deficits are a chronic problem, leading to overseas borrowing.

And none of this takes into account the possibility that the United Nations will impose harsher sanctions if Iran continues its work on nuclear weapons technology.

Political fallout
There are domestic political consequences to such a convergence, note traders and officials in both the U.S. and Iran. Ahmadinejad was elected on campaign promises that he would end corruption and better distribute the nation’s oil wealth. He has been unable to do either; now, with declining oil revenues, his job will be even more difficult.

One sign of this is the street demonstrations he has faced each time his administration has so much as floated the suggestion of a small increase in the price of gasoline. To counter his inability to fulfill his domestic promises, Ahmadinejad has played the nationalism/nuclear card, accusing the West of trying to stifle Iran’s legitimate energy needs.

How long and how successfully he can play these cards is debatable. Municipal elections last month unveiled a lot of dissatisfaction as opposition parties swept through municipal majlises throughout the country. His rival in the 2005 presidential election, Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani, has criticized him publicly for the first time, as have others close to Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei. Student demonstrations and local newspapers are becoming increasingly critical of the “dictator.”

Meanhwhile, the Bush administration is only too happy to see Ahmadinejad's deteriorating domestic situation — and to let the Saudis further turn the screws. Moreover, administration officials are hinting they will be applying financial pressures to complement the Saudis. (As one official said recently, Iran cannot operate in the oil markets without using dollars.)

The officials did not reveal how the pressures would work, but said they are underway. The U.S. blacklisted the state-owned Bank Sepah, Iran’s fifth largest, in recent weeks and last month, Iranian Oil Minister Kazem Vaziri-Hamaneh acknowledged having difficulties in financing oil projects. Commerzbank of Germany also has announced that it will no longer handle dollar-currency transactions for Iranian banks at its New York branch.

One trader is convinced that the U.S. and Saudis sealed a secretive deal on Iran when Vice President Dick Cheney met with King Abdullah in what appeared to be a hastily arranged summit in Riyadh in late November 2006. There have been lower-profile meetings as well that could have dealt with the arrangement.

Equipment problems
Long term, traders say that the Iranian oil will become even more expensive, if not impossible, to extract because Iran does not have access to up-to-date exploration and drilling equipment. Only two countries, the U.S. and Canada, manufacture the equipment needed for the job and they simply do not sell to Iran. Iranian attempts to get the Japanese to sell some of their equipment — not the same quality as the North American equipment but adequate — failed when the U.S. pressured the Japanese.

The biggest field discovered in the past 35 years, at Azadegan, near the Iraqi border, is considered “geologically complex,” according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, and thus will be costly to develop. The lower world oil prices, the more difficult it becomes to make the field profitable and to get foreign investors to do complicated joint ventures with the national oil company.

Rafsanjani is known to believe that Iran should not continue to anger the U.S. and should align itself with the Americans in a fight against the Sunnis, an opportunity that is slipping away as Iran angers the U.S. in Iraq and on the nuclear front. And this week, reformist Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri joined in the criticism.

For the U.S. and Saudis, this can only be seen as good news.
© 2007 MSNBC Interactive


Are Saudis waging an oil-price war on Iran?

Old Post Jan-30-2007 19:37  Europe
Click Here to See the Profile for star-traveller Click here to Send star-traveller a Private Message Add star-traveller to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

I actually alluded to this in a post a few weeks ago. It certainly makes sense in many aspects. However, this is a summary of the most recent piece I have seen on it. Combine that with today's headlies that the Saudis are going to go ahead and cut production by 158K barrels/day. Who knows!?

quote:
The position of Saudi Arabia continues to be misrepresented in the media, despite all evidence that Saudis are firm in their support for oil prices between $55-$65 WTI. Saudi Arabia has not changed its policy in the last two years: when oil prices were above $65, they have consistently overproduced oil, and enticed their fellow OPEC members to do the same. Since September 2006, and the price plunge, the Saudis have taken the lead in cutting production to reduce the size of oil inventories. These are the facts. Everything else is a fundamental misreading of Saudi Arabia’s policy in the Middle East, and is based on the false assumption that Saudi Arabia will placate its foreign policy to the one conducted by the Neo-cons in Washington in seeking confrontation with Iran. This is not in Saudi Arabia’s interest, and its cooperation with Iran recently to reduce tensions in Lebanon is a proof that the two countries are seeking to reduce tensions rather than exacerbate them.

Old Post Jan-30-2007 21:27  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for Shakka Click here to Send Shakka a Private Message Add Shakka to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

Wow star-traveller, you surprise me sometimes
Good article and very believable for sure...


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Jan-31-2007 01:48  Canada
Click Here to See the Profile for Fir3start3r Click here to Send Fir3start3r a Private Message Add Fir3start3r to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
I actually alluded to this in a post a few weeks ago. It certainly makes sense in many aspects. However, this is a summary of the most recent piece I have seen on it. Combine that with today's headlies that the Saudis are going to go ahead and cut production by 158K barrels/day. Who knows!?


I agree with the information you quoted in your post. Makes the most sense as well.


___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Old Post Jan-31-2007 02:50  Canada
Click Here to See the Profile for Magnetonium Click here to Send Magnetonium a Private Message Visit Magnetonium's homepage! Add Magnetonium to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
star-traveller
Kill All Humans



Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Amsterdam, NL

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Wow star-traveller, you surprise me sometimes
Good article and very believable for sure...


I found that article on a Russian news media site (translated to Russian). But instead of Saudis, they refered to the US, and of course they didn't provide any source. After a short search over internet I found the original on MSNBC.

Old Post Jan-31-2007 10:30  Europe
Click Here to See the Profile for star-traveller Click here to Send star-traveller a Private Message Add star-traveller to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
LazFX
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2004
Location: 9th Circle

quote:
Originally posted by star-traveller
I found that article on a Russian news media site (translated to Russian). But instead of Saudis, they refered to the US, and of course they didn't provide any source. After a short search over internet I found the original on MSNBC.


Wow, you mean Mother Russia is not so inncoent in the propaganda war huh?

Old Post Jan-31-2007 10:49  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for LazFX Click here to Send LazFX a Private Message Visit LazFX's homepage! Add LazFX to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
star-traveller
Kill All Humans



Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Amsterdam, NL

quote:
Originally posted by LazFX
Wow, you mean Mother Russia is not so inncoent in the propaganda war huh?


I've never said she was.

Old Post Jan-31-2007 10:54  Europe
Click Here to See the Profile for star-traveller Click here to Send star-traveller a Private Message Add star-traveller to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Iran’s oil reserves, he notes, are declining more rapidly than Saudi Arabia’s and are more difficult to extract.

that same barrel costs Iran as much as $15-18.

Moreover, Iran has a large domestic market for oil, particularly fuel oil,

Perhaps more important, because Iran has limited refining capability, it must import more than 40 percent its gasoline, making it the second largest importer of gasoline in the world after the United States,

And since Iran sells gasoline at a rate comparable to the rest of the Gulf states — around 33 cents a gallon — it must subsidize the price on a massive scale. In fact, say traders, Iran is paying about $1.50 per gallon to subsidize domestic gasoline consumption.

Iran has other problems that make it vulnerable. Inflation is officially running at 17 percent

unemployment is at 11 percent.

In addition, capital outflow is estimated at $50 billion annually and budget deficits are a chronic problem, leading to overseas borrowing.

And none of this takes into account the possibility that the United Nations will impose harsher sanctions if Iran continues its work on nuclear weapons technology.


what the perception is (of a Neo-con/Saudi partnership against Iran) and these ^^realities and others regarding Iran's precarious economic situation are one in the same IMO. IOW it doesn't really matter what the perception is, it's unsustainable for them no matter if it's the market behaving honestly or there is a concerted effort to undermine them.

their margins are drastically getting thinner for them as we approach the sub-$50 bbl mark and if it falls below that and the Saudis still haven't shut the spiggots then questions of deliberate undermining of Iran will become much more obvious.

i'm not saying there is a "magical" bbl price when Iran can no longer survive and all of a sudden they croak, but it doesn't take anything really for OPEC to not continue flooding inventories.

Last edited by Q5echo on Jan-31-2007 at 11:32

Old Post Jan-31-2007 11:27  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for Q5echo Click here to Send Q5echo a Private Message Add Q5echo to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message

TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Are Saudis waging an oil-price war on Iran?
Post New Thread    Post A Reply

 
Last Thread   Next Thread
Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackCatchy tune: Need Help identifying it. Driving me crazy [2006] [2]

Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackSami Saari - Cherish [2005]

Show Printable Version | Subscribe to this Thread
Forum Jump:

All times are GMT. The time now is 19:37.

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
[IMG] code is ON
 
Search this Thread:

 
Contact Us - return to tranceaddict

Powered by: Trance Music & vBulletin Forums
Copyright ©2000-2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Privacy Statement / DMCA
Support TA!