I posted this in the COR in hopes of getting a wider range of response than just in here, but I wouldn't mind you guys' thoughts.

quote:

Government Funded Daycare program Allright peeps im writing a paper on this, im almost done and i just wanted to feel the waters on what people think. Basically i want to know how many of you are actually against having a government funded national daycare program. All studies have found that early interventions, specially for lower income children have great positive effects. Some argument the effects are shortlived and fade out as soon as 3rd grade but most of the fading effect is explained by family situations and quality of latter educational centers. There are proven economic gains also such as more single mothers entering the work force, and couples being able to juggle work/children more effectively and thus increasing productivity. Anyone have arguments against? I want to have a balanced review of the issue in my paper, but arguments against are far and few in between and usually don't hold up. Anyone interested in looking at current models for implementation of a nation wide daycare system can look at the Carolina Abecederian and Headstart in the US. In Canada there's Quebec's recently implemented province wide government funded daycare program.

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quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

I'm very much against it.

Daycare is no substitute for the individual attention of a parent. Anyone who chooses to have a child should be prepared to accept the responsibility of actually raising that child and not just dumping him or her off with a bunch of other neglected children all day so that the parents can just go about their business.

If the parents are not prepared to shoulder the commitment of time and energy that raising a child entails, then they should not be having children at all, and we most certainly should not be publicly subsidizing their negligent parenting by making it cheaper or easier for them to shirk their responsibility to properly raise their child.

Daycare in the case of an emergency or other unusual situation on a short-term basis is fine, but the practice of leaving children there regularly is disgusting and needs to end entirely, not be paid for by the government.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter I'm very much against it. Daycare is no substitute for the individual attention of a parent. Anyone who chooses to have a child should be prepared to accept the responsibility of actually raising that child and not just dumping him or her off with a bunch of other neglected children all day so that the parents can just go about their business. If the parents are not prepared to shoulder the commitment of time and energy that raising a child entails, then they should not be having children at all, and we most certainly should not be publicly subsidizing their negligent parenting by making it cheaper or easier for them to shirk their responsibility to properly raise their child. Daycare in the case of an emergency or other unusual situation on a short-term basis is fine, but the practice of leaving children there regularly is disgusting and needs to end entirely, not be paid for by the government.

Then how would you propose parents balance their work duties and child rearing? If you say that if they can't do it then they shouldn't have any then you would eventually kill out all the lower strata of society because only people that can afford to juggle work responsibilities and child raising responsibilities would be having children. Parent that are below the poverty line obviously can not work and provide proper care for their children, and demanding that they do albeit logical is unreasonable. The fact is the problem is here and unless you ban poor people from having children the need for a daycare system is there. So how would you propose to plausibly solve this problem. Don't go all it's their fault and they should deal with it, it falls on society to help. Good early education is associated with less criminality and better educational and economic prospects for people how benefit from having it.

___________________
Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

Well here in Canada, if Daycare worked 'so well', why are Chinese immigrants forced to send their babies back to China after one year when they can't afford it? ($1200/mnth)

Or how about NO accountability when things are subsidized...
Like this winner:

quote:

[size]Director billed T.M.R. daycare for flowers, china, suit alleges[/size] ANN CARROLL The gazette Monday, May 29, 2006 The former director of a non-profit daycare in Town of Mount Royal charged clothes, restaurant meals and spa visits to the daycare centre, a civil lawsuit filed in Quebec Superior Court alleges. The Centre de la petite enfance Mont Royal is seeking repayment of $616,049.43 jointly from former director Jeany Tsitsos, accounting secretary Karen Goldfield and Rejean Carbonneau, the chartered accountant who audited the centre's books. The allegations of misspending and negligent audits have not been proven. The parties in the lawsuit are to appear in Superior Court on June 20 to set a date for the hearings. Tsitsos, Goldfield and Carbonneau could not be reached for comment. Sonia Lacombe, president of the centre's board of directors, declined to discuss details of the lawsuit while it is before the courts. But she said the case should serve as a cautionary tale for other parents who volunteer a couple of hours a month to sit on their child's daycare board. Parent volunteers are often untrained in financial management and must rely on the honesty of daycare staff and the diligence of chartered accountants hired to verify daycare account books, Lacombe said. "We have no experience of how much it should cost to feed 80 kids a year, or how much to budget for office supplies and cleaning equipment." Since Tsitsos's departure in 2005, the board of directors has revised the daycare budget and dropped the daily fee and surcharge from $13 to $9, Lacombe said. (Non-profit CPEs charge a basic $7 a day, but many add small surcharges to cover outings and special events.) If parent-run boards of directors are in the dark about daycare costs, who is keeping tabs? Lacombe said the government, which subsidizes about 80 per cent of CPE budgets, expects accountants to check the centres' revenues and expenses. "But in our experience, the CAs don't go to the micro level, to check what each invoice was for," she said. "They rely on the board to go to the micro level." The CPE Mont Royal lawsuit alleges that a closer look at the daycare's $1.4-million annual budget and Tsitsos's spending from April 2004 to July 2005 might have uncovered: $25,802 for restaurant meals $19,827 for china $13,107 for flowers $12,475 for clothing Goldfield helped the director cover up her purchases, the lawsuit alleges. Clothing bills, for example, were classified as "personal development" or "educational material," the lawsuit claims. Tsitsos worked at the daycare centre on Laird Blvd. for 18 years, first as a child educator and, from 1991 to 2005, as director, according to the lawsuit. Goldfield was employed at the centre as accounting secretary for 25 years, from 1980 to 2005, and Carbonneau audited the books for 12 years. The parents who sit on CPE boards of directors often change from year to year, and are unprepared to oversee million-dollar budgets, Lacombe said. That could soon be remedied. Quebec is now preparing a course for parents who volunteer to run their children's public daycare centre. "Training courses will be offered within the next year," said Stephanie Tremblay, spokesperson for the Quebec family and child-care services department. The course responds to parents' complaints and "our own awareness" of the need, Tremblay said. Each CPE board is independent and responsible for managing the centre's money, resources and staff, Tremblay said. Quebec produces a written guide - available online - that outlines parents' roles and responsibilities, and offers advice to boards of directors on specific problems, she added. But the government relies on the daycare director to bring the information to the attention of new board members, Lacombe said. Goodwill works in 99 per cent of daycares, but training courses will save parents in the other one per cent a lot of grief, she added.

>>Source<<

The problem, as with all government programs here in Canada, they figure that throwing money at a problem actually solves the problem and us taxpayers are left watching our hard-earned cash dissolve before our eyes into the same problem...
It would be easier to take the cash out of our own pocket and throw it in the fireplace; at least I know what happened to it rather than have it show up in a newspaper article like the one above.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter I'm very much against it. Daycare is no substitute for the individual attention of a parent. Anyone who chooses to have a child should be prepared to accept the responsibility of actually raising that child and not just dumping him or her off with a bunch of other neglected children all day so that the parents can just go about their business. If the parents are not prepared to shoulder the commitment of time and energy that raising a child entails, then they should not be having children at all, and we most certainly should not be publicly subsidizing their negligent parenting by making it cheaper or easier for them to shirk their responsibility to properly raise their child. Daycare in the case of an emergency or other unusual situation on a short-term basis is fine, but the practice of leaving children there regularly is disgusting and needs to end entirely, not be paid for by the government.

AMEN!

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

In this business world, when both spouses usually have to work to sustain themselves and kids, there's little time to look after kids. And so if there will be no government support for daycare, then in 50, 100 years Canada's population will be all middle-aged and retirement-aged, causing an economic problem. Plus the Asians would outnumber us 1000 to 1 by then. Something needs to be done, we need to multiply and fuel the economy - the kids will be the future of Canada. I guess some people dont understand that.

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quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium In this business world, when both spouses usually have to work to sustain themselves and kids, there's little time to look after kids. And so if there will be no government support for daycare, then in 50, 100 years Canada's population will be all middle-aged and retirement-aged, causing an economic problem. Plus the Asians would outnumber us 1000 to 1 by then. Something needs to be done, we need to multiply and fuel the economy - the kids will be the future of Canada. I guess some people dont understand that.

That's easily solved with immigration though...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Well here in Canada, if Daycare worked 'so well', why are Chinese immigrants forced to send their babies back to China after one year when they can't afford it? ($1200/mnth) Or how about NO accountability when things are subsidized... Like this winner: >>Source<< The problem, as with all government programs here in Canada, they figure that throwing money at a problem actually solves the problem and us taxpayers are left watching our hard-earned cash dissolve before our eyes into the same problem... It would be easier to take the cash out of our own pocket and throw it in the fireplace; at least I know what happened to it rather than have it show up in a newspaper article like the one above.

Although it is true that cases like these are bound to prop up it doesn't mean that we should implement a program of this sort. This case just illustrates the need for more accountability and more pressure on the government. This is an example of people not holding the government accountable enough. I still don't see how one separate incident such as this one would outweigh the multiple benefit a program of this nature has on society.

Edit:
It has also been shown that for profit centers are harder to hold accountable, and on average give out lower quality care.

Edit2:
Also what do you mean by the sending back babies thing? Is this in Quebec, because it is the only place in canada were there is a well established day care program. Also where did you get and what means that $1200/month number? In Quebec day care is $5/day which is way less than $1200/month.

___________________
Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

quote:

Originally posted by venomX Then how would you propose parents balance their work duties and child rearing? If you say that if they can't do it then they shouldn't have any then you would eventually kill out all the lower strata of society because only people that can afford to juggle work responsibilities and child raising responsibilities would be having children. Parent that are below the poverty line obviously can not work and provide proper care for their children, and demanding that they do albeit logical is unreasonable. The fact is the problem is here and unless you ban poor people from having children the need for a daycare system is there. So how would you propose to plausibly solve this problem. Don't go all it's their fault and they should deal with it, it falls on society to help. Good early education is associated with less criminality and better educational and economic prospects for people how benefit from having it.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy the excuses. In other parts of the world, people in general are far poorer, have less resources, and have far less provided for them than even the poorest people in western nations. Historically, people were poorer, had less access to resources, and had less of their needs provided for than people are in modern times.

But it is in western countries, not the rest of the world, and in modern times, not the past, where we see children recieving the least time and attention from their parents.

It does not compute. People with far less than our "lower strata" made it work and raised their children personally, maybe not perfectly but they did the best they could and at least they were there. If we, with all our modern resources, can't do that, then we have bigger problems that clearly need to be addressed. And the solution to those problems is certainly not daycare.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter I'm sorry, but I don't buy the excuses. In other parts of the world, people in general are far poorer, have less resources, and have far less provided for them than even the poorest people in western nations. Historically, people were poorer, had less access to resources, and had less of their needs provided for than people are in modern times. But it is in western countries, not the rest of the world, and in modern times, not the past, where we see children recieving the least time and attention from their parents. It does not compute. People with far less than our "lower strata" made it work and raised their children personally, maybe not perfectly but they did the best they could and at least they were there. If we, with all our modern resources, can't do that, then we have bigger problems that clearly need to be addressed. And the solution to those problems is certainly not daycare.

Your analogy is not a valid one. You cant compare how society worked before and the demands parents experienced from society in the past to our standards right now. In antiquity parents could discard their child, throw it away or forget about it all they wanted, and they would not face any consequences. You can not try and hold parents accountable and at the same time say that it is their sole job to care for the child. It doesn't work. It's easy to dismiss the problem by saying that they gave birth to the child and they should solve it. You have also failed to answer my questions. What do you suggest people do? You are also neglecting all the positive benefits of early education. Basically you're brushing off the problem without providing any real arguments by using arrogant and 'im correct your not' wording in your posts. You can just say you don't like and have no real reason as to why, or you can provide me with concrete examples of why implementing this program would have more negative effects than not implementing it.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

if this is to be entertained at all, then where are the states on this?

why is all of the burden put on the Federal Government first and not the states and municipalities who should be more intimate with the needs of it's tax base in the first place?

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter I'm very much against it. Daycare is no substitute for the individual attention of a parent. Anyone who chooses to have a child should be prepared to accept the responsibility of actually raising that child and not just dumping him or her off with a bunch of other neglected children all day so that the parents can just go about their business. If the parents are not prepared to shoulder the commitment of time and energy that raising a child entails, then they should not be having children at all, and we most certainly should not be publicly subsidizing their negligent parenting by making it cheaper or easier for them to shirk their responsibility to properly raise their child. Daycare in the case of an emergency or other unusual situation on a short-term basis is fine, but the practice of leaving children there regularly is disgusting and needs to end entirely, not be paid for by the government.

Right on. Very well put.

EDIT: I completely agree with everything you just said. But there is a valid point venomX seems to have touched on at least, and that's both parents often having to regularly work long hours to make ends meet. But I consider that to be a problem arising from lack of regulation on business, particularly corporations. Employees are essentially viewed as dispensible tools with no other obligations or responsibilites. So the solution in my opinion isn't day care, but regulation of some type to take care of the problem.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Mar-11-2007 at 04:19