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josh4
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: New York City
President Is Denied Executive Privilege

quote:
President Is Denied Executive Privilege

By Peter Baker and Susan Schmidt
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, May 6, 1998; Page A01

A federal judge has ruled that President Clinton cannot use the power of his office to block prosecutors from questioning his senior aides, rejecting Clinton's assertion of executive privilege in the Monica S. Lewinsky investigation, lawyers familiar with the decision said yesterday.

In a ruling issued under court seal Monday, Chief U.S. District Judge Norma Holloway Johnson concluded that independent counsel Kenneth W. Starr's need to collect evidence in his obstruction of justice probe outweighs Clinton's interest in preserving the confidentiality of White House discussions, the lawyers said.

The decision made Clinton the first president to take a claim of executive privilege to court and lose since the dramatic Watergate showdown in 1974, when the Supreme Court unanimously ordered Richard M. Nixon to turn over the secret Oval Office tapes that ultimately led to his resignation. Clinton's case also seems headed for the high court as sources indicated that the White House likely will appeal.

Johnson's ruling could amount to a significant political as well as legal setback for Clinton, lending ammunition to Republican critics, such as House Speaker Newt Gingrich (Ga.), who have charged that Clinton is trying, in Nixonian fashion, to impede Starr's investigation with invalid privilege claims.

Clinton invoked both executive privilege and attorney-client privilege to prevent Starr from asking deputy counsel Bruce R. Lindsey, communications adviser Sidney Blumenthal and other top officials about conversations regarding the Lewinsky case. According to the lawyers, Johnson also dismissed the attorney-client privilege claim on the grounds that Clinton could not use government-paid White House lawyers to aid his defense in a criminal probe.

The executive privilege dispute has been one of many legal hurdles erected in Starr's path as he investigates whether Clinton lied under oath about having a sexual relationship with Lewinsky and asked her to do so as well. But Starr has won a string of victories in recent weeks. Johnson has also sided with Starr by ordering Lewinsky's first attorney to comply with a subpoena and by rejecting the former White House intern's claim of a binding immunity agreement with prosecutors.

Word of the decision overshadowed other important developments yesterday in Starr's multi-faceted investigation into the Clinton White House. A day after charging former Clinton business partner Susan McDougal with criminal contempt and obstruction, the Little Rock grand jury that has been investigating Whitewater for 4 1/2 years disbanded without issuing more indictments.

While the White House took that as a hopeful sign that the long-running Whitewater investigation is nearing its end without producing charges against the president or first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, officials were careful not to read too much into it, at least publicly. Indeed, a parallel Washington grand jury can still take testimony or issue indictments and Starr's spokesman suggested that he still could impanel a new Little Rock grand jury.

Johnson's executive privilege ruling came as prosecutors yesterday infused new energy into their Lewinsky grand jury investigation, bringing back one of the central players in that saga, Clinton confidant Vernon E. Jordan Jr., to testify. Another key witness, presidential secretary Betty Currie, is slated to return today.

Jordan, a prominent Washington attorney, arranged job interviews in New York for Lewinsky at Currie's request and found a lawyer to help Lewinsky draft an affidavit denying a sexual relationship with Clinton in the now-dismissed Paula Jones case. But Jordan has denied that he was trying to encourage her to lie.

"Today, as twice before, I answered all the questions completely, truthfully and honestly and to the best of my ability," Jordan said as he left federal court after his third appearance before the grand jury.

A Jordan associate said prosecutors yesterday asked him about the timing and substance of telephone calls he made to the president, as well as calls he made to various prospective employers on Lewinsky's behalf in December and January. Many of the questions went over ground covered in previous appearances, but Jordan was told he will have to return again.

In another legal judgment related to the investigation, the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District yesterday upheld Johnson's decision to keep secret the hearings related to executive privilege and other disputes. Citing grand jury confidentiality rules, a three-judge panel unanimously rejected a motion filed by news organizations, including The Washington Post, seeking access to the proceedings.

The continued secrecy surrounding the dispute over executive privilege has meant that both sides have not publicly explained their arguments in a high-stakes constitutional struggle, just as the White House and Starr's office offered no official comment on Johnson's ruling.

While presidents have claimed a form of executive privilege to shield their internal deliberations since George Washington, the Nixon ruling in 1974 was the seminal case establishing that such a privilege exists and setting the broad parameters of White House secrecy for the modern era.

At the time, Nixon was defying special prosecutors seeking Oval Office tapes that implicated him in the Watergate coverup. In an 8-0 decision, the Supreme Court found that the president does have a right to confidentiality, particularly in national security or law enforcement situations, but that it must be balanced against the need for disclosure. In Nixon's case, the court judged that the interests of the Watergate probe outweighed the privilege. Two weeks later, Nixon resigned.

Judge Johnson applied a similar test in the Clinton case, according to lawyers familiar with her ruling. While she found some validity to the argument for confidentiality of the disputed conversations, she concluded that the prosecutors' needs were more compelling, the lawyers said.

She also relied heavily on an earlier appeals court ruling involving another Clinton White House claim of attorney-client privilege, citing a decision that called the use of White House lawyers in Whitewater criminal matters affecting the Clintons a "gross misuse of public assets."

That case involved Starr's efforts to subpoena notes taken by White House lawyers in discussions with Hillary Clinton during 1995 and 1996. The 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals agreed with Starr that government lawyers cannot be enlisted in private defense work and the Supreme Court refused a White House request to hear an appeal.

The White House has 10 days to file a notice of appeal of the latest privilege ruling. If Clinton's lawyers seek a hearing in the appeals court, Starr likely would ask the Supreme Court to grant an immediate hearing instead, just as Watergate prosecutors did. The White House may decide to forgo an appeal rather than run the risk of a highly visible defeat on the executive privilege issue in the Supreme Court.

While Starr has been criticized by the White House for spending four years and more than $30 million on his investigation, yesterday's ruling underlines how much of his resources have been absorbed fighting various court challenges. In nine instances, witnesses or defendants -- including the White House, McDougal and former Arkansas governor Jim Guy Tucker -- have challenged criminal convictions or court rulings, only to be rebuffed by the courts.

But Starr's time has also been split between his private law practice and his public duties. Just yesterday, Starr argued at the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on behalf of the Meineke muffler chain, which was appealing a $397 million judgment awarded to franchisees who claimed that the firm defrauded them of millions of dollars that were supposed to go to advertising.

Clinton partisans seized on yesterday's argument to illustrate their contention that Starr has not devoted full energy to the taxpayers. "When he got up Tuesday morning, Mr. Starr had the choice to serve the public interest or his own," said White House spokesman James Kennedy. "He chose the latter course."

Starr deflected questions about his work at Kirkland & Ellis, where he continues to earn up to $1 million a year, after the three-hour session in Richmond. Instead, he seemed to relish his brief furlough from government business. Far from appearing unprepared, Starr seemed sure-footed during aggressive questioning by judges seated at a wood-paneled dais in green leather swivel chairs.

At one point, he complained "there has been a vilification" of his client. And in an allusion to a famous Watergate phrase, he waved a black binder of company letters and dismissed their significance, saying, "These are not smoking guns."

If Starr has found a smoking gun against the first family in his Whitewater probe, he was not saying yesterday. The Little Rock grand jury disbanded two days before its official expiration date without any charges being brought against Hillary Clinton in connection with her legal work involving Whitewater. Starr and his deputies interviewed the first lady under oath for nearly five hours at the White House last month and presented a videotape of that session to the grand jury before closing it down.

Starr could still decide to bring a Whitewater-related perjury or obstruction case in Washington, since the testimony of many witnesses, including Hillary Clinton, has also been given here, either before the grand jury or in depositions. While the expiration of the Arkansas grand jury signals Starr's efforts there are nearly at an end, his spokesman, Charles Bakaly, said he could not rule out the possibility another grand jury would be impaneled there in the future if evidence warrants.

During 4 1/2 years of operation involving three successive groups of Arkansas citizens, the Little Rock grand jury handed up nine indictments, including charges against Tucker, McDougal and her late ex-husband, James B. McDougal. Starr's office also obtained several guilty pleas in the investigation.

The latest group to serve on the grand jury celebrated the end of their two years on the job with a pizza party at the courthouse. The White House, by contrast, said the president was not ready to celebrate yet.

"He's not expecting that it will fundamentally change things one way or another," said White House press secretary Michael McCurry. "The persistent quest for something in Whitewater will likely continue."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...starr050698.htm

Old Post Jul-13-2007 21:23  United States
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DJ Shibby
Amphoteric Superbase



Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Of Earthzen and the Therethen

Thanks for posting this...

It's an interesting look into the way we as human beings allow ourselves to embrace apathy, and how times can change so quickly and drastically.

Old Post Jul-13-2007 22:19  United States
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

lol, you made me think we were talking about Bush.


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Old Post Jul-14-2007 00:04  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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venomX
ISO salty whenches



Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Vancouver, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
lol, you made me think we were talking about Bush.


I hope you are joking. The indirect reference to Bush is quite obvious.


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quote:
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Old Post Jul-14-2007 00:13  Dominican Republic
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atbell
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: May 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada

Hillarious!

In a "It's so sad I better laugh because there's nothing else to do" kind of way

Old Post Jul-14-2007 00:50  Canada
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Spacey Orange
still loves trance.



Registered: Jul 2004
Location: California

shucks! i was going to check the news sites for the breaking story.


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Old Post Jul-14-2007 03:24  United States
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

is anyone here (namely the thread starter) intelligent enough to make a proper distinction from this and other examples of Executive privilege?

...or are we just gonna have another left-wing, emotive circle jerk and disregard the fundamental facts for the sake of blind hate?

you people are sheep.

Old Post Jul-14-2007 03:50  United States
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
is anyone here (namely the thread starter) intelligent enough to make a proper distinction from this and other examples of Executive privilege?

...or are we just gonna have another left-wing, emotive circle jerk and disregard the fundamental facts for the sake of blind hate?

you people are sheep.


It's always fun hearing that 26% minority crowd crying out towards everyone else when certain bouts of contradiction put his little dictator in question.

It's just too much a tickle to have you dwindling Bush supporters, especially you, Q, who've NEVER ONCE ON THIS FORUM demonstrate any dissent from this President, and has specifically claimed on one post not long ago that you have never disagreed with this president, find it worthy to point your little finger in a 360 degree direction at all those around you who no longer agree with your little Bush.

But you must forgive us little sheep for actually growing a few neurons over the past 6 years and come to realize that agreeing with your little dictator is not always in the best interest of our country. I do hope you find it somewhere in that little neocon heart of yours to have forgiveness on those who are not in your 26% minority. I absolutely beg of it from you.

Now, as to that "proper distinction", let us take a gander at the letter from Miers' Council, George Manning:

http://judiciary.house.gov/Media/PDFS/Manning070709.pdf

Where he specifically noted that the WH asserted Executive Privilege on Miers that she cannot testify nor give any documents in question to the House Judiciary Committee. If that does not help you, allow your fingers to scroll further down and observe the note by Fielding, WH Counselor that specifically tells Manning that his client will not testify because:

quote:
"the President has decided to assert Executive Privilege with respect to the testimony sought from Ms. Miers concerning White House consideration, deliberations, or communications, whether internal or external, relating to the possible dismissal of United States Attorneys, including consideration of possible responses to congressional and media inquiries on the United States Attorneys matter."


Now if you want to play your cute semantics games on the differences between the charges on Clinton versus this US Attorneys case, you're more than welcome to do so on your own accord. But the point I believe Josh was making is that in both instances our Presidents are invoking Executive Privilege for questioning of their senior aides.

Your little President has covered up way too much bullshit, Q. He's throwing around Executive Privilege just a wee bit too much. It really does beg the question as to what on earth this Administration has to hide by not allowing Miers to respond or even be present during the hearing. I mean if this Administration was not involved in such efforts, I wonder why they won't allow Miers to respond?

I guess I'm not a good enough sheep like you, Q., who never asks such strange questions about our fearless leader. I will try harder. I will try harder.

I will try harder........


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Jul-14-2007 06:39  United States
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

yes or no. is the President under oath?

EDIT> i'll answer for you since you took off on me.

no. President Bush is not under oath. but, thats irrelavent

Clinton, was, however, when he lied and obstructed in his sworn Grand Jury deposition regarding the Jones lawsuit. Clinton's attempt at Executive Privilege was desperate at best because he knew precedent was not on his side with his respect to the SCOTUS decision in US v. Nixon and he had actually broken the law. Clinton is that slimey. but again, Clinton is irrelavent as well.

what Bush is basically saying, since Executive Privilege has been determined by the SCOTUS as "not absolute", is that he knows his powers are fairly absolute in his authority over his Justice Dept. and that he is willing to take it and/or Congress to it's ultimate test in court. not only to protect his privilege, but future privileges as well.

he'll prevail under Separation of Powers but it probably won't go that far since everyone knows this is just a charade on the Democrat's part like a most crap they are involved in.

because, ultimately, this whole charade hurts the Executive, ultimately.

Last edited by Q5echo on Jul-14-2007 at 08:00

Old Post Jul-14-2007 06:50  United States
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Groundhog Boy
Stupidity Offends Me



Registered: May 2005
Location: New York, NY

I know Q, it's real hard when the subject of dissent is blowjobs, you know, the topic Clinton couldn't claim executive privilege on. When it's actually some area that people care about, like leaking classified info, it's of no consequence and should be kept from the rest of the world, particularly the segment funding it.

I really have no clue how in years of seeing your views on here, you have never dissented from what Bush has said once. I know you have served in the military, but that shouldn't have turned you into a conscript that was forced to accept every comment until your death.

My father, a 3 tour Vietnam vet, prays for guys like you and he's far from a religious man. I still vividly remember the day when I was at home going through my job search and Colin Powell spoke to the UN. My dad came home from work during the speech to the UN and both of us got to call "bullshit" on how we sold this war. He watched us lie our way through Vietnam and this was par for the course. By the way, what ever happened to those mobile chemical weapons labs? Did they fail to exist, just like everything else we spoke against?

Nixon was a saint compared to these assholes. At least he was responsible enough to accept his losses and mistakes. It's too bad that we don't live closer to the Bushido code..


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Last edited by Groundhog Boy on Jul-14-2007 at 10:33

Old Post Jul-14-2007 10:24  United States
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

Excellent post Groundhog Boy. Nice to see you post after a while too btw .


___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Old Post Jul-14-2007 14:52  United States
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
yes or no. is the President under oath?

EDIT> i'll answer for you since you took off on me.

no. President Bush is not under oath. but, thats irrelavent


You're right, under the context in question it is absolutely irrelevant. Does he have to be put under oath in order to have the identical parallel of claiming Executive Privilege in order to protect his senior aides in the same manner as Clinton? Of course not, because in both cases there were possible underlying crimes that needed further investigation via testimony and documentation.

For Clinton, it was clear that he lied under oath to the grand jury, and that further testimony about the actions of Lewinsky was necessary. For Bush, his DoJ officials (i.e. Gonzales) have sworn testimony that directly contradicts documentation documentation that demonstrates he has not been as forthright to Congress. Furthermore, there is conflicting testimony with his former staff officials, which makes the water even murkier (I would argue done deliberately so).

This goes beyond what Gonzales or what the WH has said publicly. Trying to believe a freakin' word any of them say to the public or press is beyond difficult in its own right, but in terms of case law it's unfortunately not relevant. So although it may speak volumes about their ethical lapses to the public, that's not relevant as is sworn testimony and documentation.

And as a side event that became related to this case once the investigation was underway, we may also have a possible violation of the Hatch Act in regards to emails being sent by Rove and others in the WH via RNC email accounts, which is also a big no-no.

So while your attempts to separate the two cases are fun, the underlying issue of claiming Executive Privilege during an investigation with conflicting and contradictory testimony either to the grand jury (Clinton) or to congress (Bush/Gonzales/DoJ) are quite similar and cannot merely be hand waved away by you.


quote:
what Bush is basically saying, since Executive Privilege has been determined by the SCOTUS as "not absolute", is that he knows his powers are fairly absolute in his authority over his Justice Dept. and that he is willing to take it and/or Congress to it's ultimate test in court. not only to protect his privilege, but future privileges as well.


Oh please. What a heap of bullshit. Whatever you're smoking, please for the love of God put it away. Stop trying to sell us your absolute bullshit about Bush trying to protect future Presidential privileges and legacies with his incessant Executive Privilege actions. His actions have ALWAYS been for Bush and his legacy alone. Your president gives not a fucking whit about any future president (or future generation for that matter), so you can stop with that slapstick comedy right now.

Really now, should we really be so thankful that our President is claiming Executive Privilege on cases like Tillman?:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...ml?hpid=topnews

This is beyond the point of absurdity as to how much they are claiming secrecy. We're talking about one man who died three years ago in Afghanistan, and we have to, actually people like YOU buy into the bullshit that our WH can effectively block investigations into such transparent wrongdoing on the flimsy basis that their actions are confidential? Take a read at Waxman's note:

http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20070713115949.pdf

As is noted, the Committee already has in its possession documented evidence that the President KNEW in advance before giving his big speech in honor of Tillman that it was "highly possible" Tillman was killed via friendly fire.

But what's painfully obvious is people like you just simply don't question him, NOT AT ANY COST. Not even for simply curiousity. I haven't once seen one argument from you here that demonstrates any possible questioning of your fearless leader, not just on his incredibly shoddy Yoo/Addington theories of Absolute Executive Authority (heaven forbid you actually question your Commander in Chief), but on anything.

Such is life for the dwindling neocons, I suppose.

quote:
he'll prevail under Separation of Powers but it probably won't go that far since everyone knows this is just a charade on the Democrat's part like a most crap they are involved in.


I can't even imagine what kind of psychological and emotional torture you will be in if your little leader doesn't prevail, as you predicted.

But I must say, I'm more than happy to take you up on that bet, not because I believe in the Democrats (that's admittedly hard to do these days given they've lost their backbones years ago), but because the record of neocons like yourself making predictions (i.e. Iraq) really isn't in your favor.

Hate to say it, but on that alone, odds are heavily in my favor.

Regardless, if there ever does come a day that the Dems. find their spine, I'm curious as to what you think about Inherent Contempt? And before you say "no fucking way", here's Conyers last Wednesday:

quote:
"A refusal to appear before the Subcommittee tomorrow could subject Ms. Miers to contempt proceedings, including but not limited to proceedings under 2 U.S.C. § 194 and under the inherent contempt authority of the House of Representatives."

http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=571


That would be quite a tall step, admittedly. But it is completely within the rights of Congress to do so (and by my contention, they must).

quote:
because, ultimately, this whole charade hurts the Executive, ultimately.


What hurts the Executive more is a failure to question the Executive when we believe they are abusing their powers, just as you questioned the Executive for lying about a fucking blowjob to a grand jury. Excuse us for questioning on matters that appear to be a bit more important and relevant to this country.


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Jul-14-2007 15:14  United States
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