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star-traveler
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Registered: Apr 2007
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

quote:
A Criminal-Diplomatic Affair
// UK Foreign Office Seeks to Punish Russia in Litvinenko Affair

The British authorities are treating Russia's refusal to extradite Andrei Lugovoi as a provocation. Yesterday the British Embassy in Moscow told Kommersant that the matter of the murder of Alexander Litvinenko, which until now has been considered a purely criminal case, is now on the level of relations between the two countries' foreign ministries. The British Foreign Office is already drafting a raft of retaliatory measures against Moscow that will soon be presented to the British Parliament for consideration.
A Political Matter Instead of a Criminal One

A spokesman for the British Embassy in Moscow told Kommersant yesterday that "the Russian authorities' reply to the request to extradite Andrei Lugovoi was negative, and thus it is unacceptable." "Until now we have been saying that this is not political, not related to intelligence, but a purely criminal matter. However, since Russia has not fulfilled the request to extradite Mr. Lugovoi, now the issue will be taken up by the British Foreign Office," he said. This is the first acknowledgement from London that the months-long squabble between Russia and Britain over the matter of the murder of Alexander Litvinenko has turned into a full-scale diplomatic conflict.

The British Crown Prosecution Service received a formal reply on Tuesday from the Russian General Prosecutor's Office regarding the extradition of Andrei Lugovoi. That same day, Britain's top prosecutor, Sir Ken Macdonald, went on the record to insist that "the allegation against Mr. Lugovoi is that he murdered a British citizen by deliberate poisoning and that he committed this extraordinarily grave crime here in our capital city. The appropriate venue for his trial is therefore London."

Immediately after receiving Moscow's response, the British authorities decided to pull all available political levers to deal with Mr. Lugovoi. "Moscow's refusal to extradite Lugovoi was extremely disappointing, and we deeply regret that Russia has failed to show the necessary level of cooperation in this matter," said a spokesman for British Prime Minister Gordon Brown. "Russia is an important partner on many issues and we continue to seek a constructive relationship with them, but we need to carefully consider our range of cooperation," he said.

A spokesperson in the British Foreign Office told Kommersant that the office is already drafting possible responses to Russia's refusal. "From now on, this issue will be dealt with by the Foreign Office. [The Foreign Office] will take the next step in this matter," confirmed the British Embassy's press service in Moscow. A special report from the Foreign Office with proposals regarding the matter of reconsidering the "range of cooperation" between Britain and Russia is due to be presented to the British Parliament within the next few days. The embassy declined to comment on the content of the report: "We are not prepared to discuss the details of possible consequences and the report that the ministry is preparing. We are considering the answer and all subsequent actions carefully and with all due seriousness and attention," said an embassy spokesperson.

Moscow's Basmanny Court Instead of London's Old Bailey

"We are surprised by the reaction of the British side to the current situation, particularly given that our position accords completely with Russian law; specifically, it complies with Article 61 of the Russian Constitution," said Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin yesterday. The basic argument advanced by the Russian authorities regarding the matter of Andrei Lugovoi is that he is a Russian citizen, and, according to its constitution, Russia does not extradite its citizens. A month ago, Russian President Vladimir Putin even said that the request from British law enforcement authorities to hand over Andrei Lugovoi testifies to their foolishness.

Asked by Kommersant how Russia could extradite Mr. Lugovoi without violating its constitution, a spokeswoman at the British Foreign Office replied, "that is the Russian government's problem," noting that Mr. Lugovoi is suspected of committing "an extremely serious crime, as a result of which the lives of hundreds of people were put at risk. This crime cannot be allowed to go unpunished." She also pointed out that all of the evidence and all of the witnesses in the case are in London, and therefore the Foreign Office intends to insist that the trial take place in the British capital.

The press service at the Crown Prosecution Service told Kommersant that "the extradition request has not been rescinded, it is still in effect; the British government now has to give a political reply to the Russian prosecutor general's refusal." A spokesman for the service reminded Kommersant about the priority of international over national law and maintained that both Russia and Britain are signatories of the 1957 European Convention on Extradition, on which basis the extradition request was sent.

However, Aslan Abashidze, a specialist in international law and a professor at a Moscow university, told Kommersant that "the 1957 European Convention on Extradition says that a citizen of one country can be handed over to another if his guilt has been proven and if the crime that he committed is prosecutable in both countries." He maintained that "it is precisely on the basis of this convention that Russia has asked Britain to extradite Ahmed Zakayev and Boris Berezovsky. Britain has not done so, asserting that there is insufficient evidence of their guilt. Since the UK has not demonstrated goodwill by conscientiously adhering to the convention, on the basis of reciprocity Russia can do the same." According to Mr. Abashidze, Britain cited a London court decision in refusing Russia's request. In the current situation, Russia could declare that the extradition of Andrei Lugovoi is not a matter for the Russian Foreign Ministry or the president to decide and could rely instead, for example, on a decision by some Moscow court. "What's our best region? Basmanny? So, for example, on the basis of a decision by the Basmanny Court," concluded Mr. Abashidze.

Mikhail Margelov, the head of the International Affairs Committee in the Russian Federation Council, reminded Kommersant that several years ago, the European Court of Human Rights found Russia guilty of violating its own constitution by handing over one of its own citizens in response to a demand from a court in Turkmenistan. "After the incident with Turkmenistan, we learned a hard lesson and no longer hand over our citizens. That's what they wanted from us – that's exactly how we're behaving," said Mr. Margelov.

Observers in the UK believe that the decisive stance of the British government on the issue could be linked to the fact that the country's new prime minister, Gordon Brown, has been in office for all of two weeks and that he wants to demonstrate his effectiveness. "The new government needs to assert itself, to show that it is capable of pursuing its own strong foreign policy," said Lord Robert Skidelsky, an Independent member of the House of Lords who is of Russian descent, in a conversation with Kommersant. "The new minister of foreign affairs needs to affirm his own authority within the country. Such foreign policy statements are most often made for domestic purposes – to make an impression within the country, not outside of it." Britain's new foreign minister, who was appointed just two weeks ago, is David Miliband, a 41-year-old rising star of the Labour Party who is believed by many to be the most likely candidate for the party's next leader and a potential successor to the somewhat charmless Mr. Brown. Mr. Miliband's predecessor as the head of the Foreign Office, Margaret Beckett, is now a Labour member of Parliament. She declined to comment on the situation: a spokesperson in her office told Kommersant that the Foreign Office is expressing the general party line.

Over the last two weeks, the popularity of Gordon Brown's new cabinet has soared after its quick and decisive reaction to the terrorist attacks in London and Glasgow. Clearly, Mr. Brown's government is eager to keep up the pace by taking on the Andrei Lugovoi affair with equal vigor. One discussion happening lately in London is whether the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko with polonium should be considered an act of nuclear terrorism. The Crown Prosecution Service, however, told Kommersant that the case does not include any such charges and the Mr. Lugovoi is accused only of murder. However, even if he were facing other charges, the diplomatic stand-off with Moscow would be unaffected, as the UK has not yet ratified the UN convention on the struggle against nuclear terrorism. In any case, that convention came into force only on July 7 of this year, and it cannot be applied retroactively.

A War of Words Instead of Prosperity

The British newspaper The Times suggested yesterday that London's reaction might be excessively harsh, including as it does the possibility that relations with Moscow could be spoiled on numerous fronts. In Lord Skidelsky's opinion, "Britain never expected that Russia would extradite Lugovoi, just like Russia never seriously expected that Britain would extradite Berezovsky. So all this tumult is largely artificial. I think that all of this current rhetoric needs to be halved. These statements will lead to conversations about new threats, about the next Cold War, and to big headlines in the papers. But I don't think that the consequences will be palpable."

The possible hardening of London's stance on Moscow could come as a surprise for some British officials. For example, on Wednesday British Ambassador to Russia Tony Brenton, in a speech in Moscow before Russian graduates of British universities, said that although the political relations between the two countries are difficult, the economic sphere is prospering and nothing is threatening the development of business ties.

"If this incident really impacts relations, it will be a catastrophe. Problems may arise with the movement of citizens and money, lines will grow at the consulates. But I hope that the reaction will be rational," said Lord Skidelsky. Nigel Evans, a British parliamentary deputy from the Conservative Party, told Kommersant that the exacerbation of the conflict "will most likely lead only to a war of words." In his opinion, the British authorities should take an interest in improving relations rather than putting them into a deep freeze, because the evolution of events will depend largely on Moscow's reaction. "The Russian authorities have demonstrated complete indifference to this problem. And their refusal is like a wall that cannot be overcome. If [they had] demonstrated readiness to cooperate, that would have diffused the situation," said Mr. Evans, noting that the evolution of events could lead to further deterioration of Russia's reputation in the West.

Unusually enough, the Russian Foreign Ministry was extremely cautious in its remarks. Mikhail Kamynin said only that "Russian-British relations are self-sufficient and cannot be turned into a hostage to this kind of problem."


The Wax and Wane of Russian-British Relations

A Timeline of Events

On November 21, 2000, at a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, British Prime Minister Tony Blair promised to be a intermediary between Russia and the US regarding a missile defense system. In February 2001, London took the side of the US on the issue.

In August 2001, Rafael Bravo, an employee of the company BAE Systems Avionics, was arrested for spying for Russia.

In March 2002, another employee of BAE, Ian Parr, was caught attempting to pass information to Russia about a new missile.

On September 12, 2002, a London court denied a Russian request for the extradition of businessman Boris Berezovsky. Similar decisions were made regarding former LogoVAZ CEO Yulia Dubova and Chechen envoy Ahmed Zakayev.

On June 7, 2004, the Russian Foreign Ministry announced that the British Council was engaged in commercial activities in Russia and that it could face fines. After the issue was discussed by Mr. Putin and Mr. Blair at the G8 summit in the US on June 10, the complaints were dropped.

On March 18, 2005, a London court refused to extradite former Yukos employees Dmitry Maruyev and Natalia Chernysheva, and, on December 23, 2005, a similar request for the extradition of Yukos vice president and deputy managing chairman Alexander Temerko was denied.

In August 2005, British sailors participated in the rescue of an AS-28 submarine off the coast of Kamchatka and were rewarded by Vladimir Putin personally.

In January 2006, several British diplomats in Moscow were accused of espionage and the illegal financing of non-commercial organizations.

In July 2006, British Ambassador to Russia Anthony Brenton attended a forum organized by the opposition coalition The Other Russia, after which the pro-Kremlin youth movement Nashi carried out several protests demanding apologies for the "speech before the fascists."

On October 12, 2006, the British Foreign Office included Russia on its list of countries that are human rights violators.

On November 23, 2006, Alexander Litvinenko, who had been granted political asylum in the UK, died in London after being poisoned with polonium-210.

On May 22, 2007, British prosecutors charged Russian former FSB officer Andrei Lugovoi with Mr. Litvinenko's murder.

On June 6, 2007, Tony Blair said that he would not recommend investment in Russia to British companies.

On June 16, the British government awarded official honors to a defector named Oleg Gordiyevsky and the judge Timothy Workman, who turned down Russia's extradition request for Boris Berezovsky and Ahmed Zakayev.

On June 25, the FSB announced that charges had been filed against the former head of the Russian tax police, Vyacheslav Zharko, who was recruited by British intelligence.

On July 5, the Russian General Prosecutor's Office announced (informally) that it would not hand over Mr. Lugovoi.

On July 10, the Russian General Prosecutor's Office formally announced its refusal of the British government's request to extradite Mr. Lugovoi.

Mikhail Zygar



UK Foreign Office Seeks to Punish Russia in Litvinenko Affair


PLEASE people, explain me one thing, why the British authorities are still covering criminals like Berezovsky and Zakaev on their land???? and f@!king bitching on Russia that they don't to give them Lugovoi?

I don't see any sense !!!

Old Post Jul-12-2007 20:59  Europe
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada



They got nothing on Lugovoi other than speculations. This is purely a political case, and they know in advance that Russians won't break the law and won't extradite him anyway. Just like British will never allow Berezovskiy-the-criminal to be extradited back to Russia. This is a political game, where UK wants to make Russia an enemy.

Oh yeah, almsot forgot about Zakaev ... the criminal who embraced the Beslan bombings and who participated in planning of other attacks on Russian civilians ... but British media portrays Zakaev as a great man fighting for Chechen independence. A former top military official who still claims to be the leader of the Chechen resistance.


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Old Post Jul-12-2007 21:55  Canada
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London
Re: Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

quote:
Originally posted by star-traveler
PLEASE people, explain me one thing, why the British authorities are still covering criminals like Berezovsky and Zakaev on their land???? and f@!king bitching on Russia that they don't to give them Lugovoi?

Cos we're harder than you and more powerful than you

Hope that cleared things up?

Old Post Jul-12-2007 22:40  England
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada
Re: Re: Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Cos we're harder than you and more powerful than you

Hope that cleared things up?


Give Russia another 30 years and it will be the other way around ;-)


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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Old Post Jul-12-2007 22:44  Canada
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London
Re: Re: Re: Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium


Give Russia another 30 years and it will be the other way around ;-)

Well hopefully in 30 years Russia won't be so backwards then we'll have no problem sending Ahmed Zakaev back to you...

Old Post Jul-12-2007 22:47  England
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada
Re: Re: Re: Re: Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Well hopefully in 30 years Russia won't be so backwards then we'll have no problem sending Ahmed Zakaev back to you...


Hahaha! Thats the lamest excuse I have ever heard for refusal to extradict Zakayev ... LOL, thats a pathetic excuse. UK is just pissed off that their companies are losing control over Russian resources and Russia in general. Afraid that Russia is becoming more powerful. But then they are double-standarded and demand something they thesmelves refuse to give. So therefore, according to your logic, UK is very backward too ;-)


___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Old Post Jul-12-2007 23:50  Canada
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LazFX
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2004
Location: 9th Circle
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium


Hahaha! Thats the lamest excuse I have ever heard for refusal to extradict Zakayev ... LOL, thats a pathetic excuse. UK is just pissed off that their companies are losing control over Russian resources and Russia in general. Afraid that Russia is becoming more powerful. But then they are double-standarded and demand something they thesmelves refuse to give. So therefore, according to your logic, UK is very backward too ;-)


Yeah what ever bright boy!! Russia is so awesome that is why u live in Canada

Old Post Jul-13-2007 01:15  United States
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

quote:
Originally posted by LazFX
Yeah what ever bright boy!! Russia is so awesome that is why u live in Canada


Last time I checked, US and Canada are immigrant countries, i.e. everyone was an immigrant at one point, except the natives - the ones who survived all the slaughter and pillaging, disease at the hands of Europeans ;-) go do your homework, bud. But thats not the point here. English politics are bullocks. Many of the people who live on North American continent are formerly (culturally) from UK. So what? North America better than UK, right? What does that have to do with this discussion?


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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Old Post Jul-13-2007 01:29  Canada
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star-traveler
Suspended User



Registered: Apr 2007
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Re: Re: Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Cos we're harder than you and more powerful than you

Hope that cleared things up?


Harder? Are you kidding me? Come back when you have Topol-M.

Last edited by star-traveler on Jul-13-2007 at 06:42

Old Post Jul-13-2007 06:35  Europe
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London
Re: Re: Re: Why New British Government Is So Stupid?

quote:
Originally posted by star-traveler
Harder? Are you kidding me? Come back when you have Topol-M.

Yea yea, come back when you have the UK's secret weapon...

Old Post Jul-13-2007 09:14  England
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

Oh and we have enough of our own nuclear weapons to do just as much damage to Russia as Russia could do to the UK (in fact we are just about to update our nuclear arsenal)

Old Post Jul-13-2007 09:22  England
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star-traveler
Suspended User



Registered: Apr 2007
Location: Amsterdam, NL

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Oh and we have enough of our own nuclear weapons to do just as much damage to Russia as Russia could do to the UK (in fact we are just about to update our nuclear arsenal)


HAHAHAHA!!!

'UK nuclear arsenal', that sounds like a typical British joke. Where did you get it? Stole the world's first atomic bomb from the US?

C'mon man, I was at the British science museum in London. The space section of it made me really laugh!!!

I don't deny the UK is a great country. But you just out of the US-Russia's leauge.

ps.
Btw, why do you keep using that silly signature? UK is not a part of Europe, you just a bunch of people living on a separate island, trying to show everybody how cool you are.

Old Post Jul-13-2007 10:42  Europe
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