http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6901346.stm

New Foreign Secretary David Miliband has made one of his first actions since taking the post expelling 4 Russian diplomats in retaliation for Russia refusing to extradite Andrei Lugovoi (who is the chief suspect in murdering British citizen Alexander Litvinenko and endangering the lives of many more British citizens)

Russia will probably do the same shortly.

Looks like things hotting up over this! Russia's been having a bad time of it of late with their relations with EU countries. And everytime Russia has caused bother the EU states have united behind the Russian target (as they have behind Britain in this instance).

I think Putin's suffering from delusions of grandure, someone should tell him the USSR fell apart and Russia's not even in the top 10 richest countries in the world (and has 1/14th the GDP of the EU who by now will be getting more and more pissed off with Russia's conduct and will hopefully act accordingly)

Russia gives me a headache.

___________________
"You won a new refrigerator, great! Where you gonna put it?" - Tony Danza

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I think Putin's suffering from delusions of grandure, someone should tell him the USSR fell apart and Russia's not even in the top 10 richest countries in the world (and has 1/14th the GDP of the EU who by now will be getting more and more pissed off with Russia's conduct and will hopefully act accordingly)

The problem is that the EU's economies would grind to a halt without that Russian oil. Now that Putin has legalized a Gazprom army to command when he's done his term in office he has gained considerable sway on the world stage.

quote:

Originally posted by atbell The problem is that the EU's economies would grind to a halt without that Russian oil. Now that Putin has legalized a Gazprom army to command when he's done his term in office he has gained considerable sway on the world stage.

Well it'd fuck their economy up just as much if the Europeans weren't buying it! Plus there are other sources of oil for the EU (it's mainly towards the East of the EU that is supplied by Russia) such as the Middle East (where the UK has major influence right now)

Plus if Russia did cut of Europe's oil supply the retaliatory measures the EU would use on Russia would cripple their economy completely

Russia had alot of oil which right now is required... but... if it continues the way it is it would only take tens of years for Europe to insulate itself from them.

Russia has great gas reserves it isn't the only place the world that has natural gas. Business hates uncertainty and the future of Russia is seriously uncertain!

___________________
If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6901346.stm New Foreign Secretary David Miliband has made one of his first actions since taking the post expelling 4 Russian diplomats in retaliation for Russia refusing to extradite Andrei Lugovoi (who is the chief suspect in murdering British citizen Alexander Litvinenko and endangering the lives of many more British citizens) Russia will probably do the same shortly. Looks like things hotting up over this! Russia's been having a bad time of it of late with their relations with EU countries. And everytime Russia has caused bother the EU states have united behind the Russian target (as they have behind Britain in this instance). I think Putin's suffering from delusions of grandure, someone should tell him the USSR fell apart and Russia's not even in the top 10 richest countries in the world (and has 1/14th the GDP of the EU who by now will be getting more and more pissed off with Russia's conduct and will hopefully act accordingly)

You guys are insane. Screwed in the head. Russia has AWESOME relations with Germany, France, Italy, Finland, etc. but Russia's not the one thats causing havoc here. First: British refuse to hand over proven criminal Berezovsky. Second: UK refuses to provide evidence of Lugovoy's actions in murder of Litvinenko. Third: UK acts as a provocator by stirring up the whole political scandal by expelling Russian diplomats and creating this whole conflict instead of handling like a man and realizing they cant have it their way all the time, especially when they lack the evidence or common sense.

You guys are just trying to make an enemy in Russia. Berezovky and Zakayev are the real criminals who should be tried for crimes in UK, not given asylum. Its really pathetic ...

I want and DEMAND proof of Putin's connections on this crime, and evidence of him going back to Soviet Union, and so on. You guys got nothing. And you guys are looking for a new enemy to fight, new war to stir because you guys are so bored and out of your mind that you need to do something. Thats lame.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Well it'd fuck their economy up just as much if the Europeans weren't buying it! Plus there are other sources of oil for the EU (it's mainly towards the East of the EU that is supplied by Russia) such as the Middle East (where the UK has major influence right now) Plus if Russia did cut of Europe's oil supply the retaliatory measures the EU would use on Russia would cripple their economy completely

Well, if it wasnt for the contracts we'd fuck your economy too by dealing more with China! But its the EU who puts pressure on Russia to deal less with China because they're afraid China will get too much of Russian oil. Contract is a contract, there's no political aspirations here, and last time I checked, gas contract between EU and Russia it was signed for over 20 years AND at EU's terms, literally GUARANTEEING them with whatever the portion of gas for that term. So shove it. You are acting like a pussy here by stirring up shit thats clearly not happening. Where's the panic where there is no fire?

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Summers Russia gives me a headache.

is it because UK is trying to make enemies with Russia? Seriously, use common sense and tell me what Russia did wrong here ... is it because they followed the laws and didnt hand over their citizen because a) there's no evidence to even extradict him and b) Russian law prohibits extradiction of citizens - so Russia's following the laws and being a democratic country. And then at the same time UK harbours criminals and refuses to hand them over, like Berezovsky, who is not a British ...

quote:

Originally posted by atbell The problem is that the EU's economies would grind to a halt without that Russian oil. Now that Putin has legalized a Gazprom army to command when he's done his term in office he has gained considerable sway on the world stage.

ARMY .... COMMAND .... WORLD STAGE ... pffft, whats wrong with you, people? What about other bigger oil and natural resource corporations like Shell and Exxon Mobil ... dont they have ARMIES, COMMAND, WORLD STAGE, CONTROL, etc BIGGER than that of Russian Gazprom? Dont they have more illegal actions going on in volative places like Middle East? How about being anti-corporate with them, too? How about it, huh? How about dropping your double standard bullshit and coming together with your senses and respecting and treating equal all world's economies and companies who are trying to do what YOUR country's oil and gas companies are trying to do! Just because Gazprom has more gas because nature's luck, there's no need to get jealous and treat ugly because some companies like Shell, Exxon use political and military applications to SEIZE OTHER COUNTRIES' oil and gas ... but thats OK, isnt it? Double standards my ass!

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium You guys are insane. Screwed in the head. Russia has AWESOME relations with Germany, France, Italy, Finland, etc. but Russia's not the one thats causing havoc here.

Awesome relations?

quote:

"We are discussing a conflict situation between the EU and Russia," he said. "Progress given the number of accumulated difficulties is not easy. But when times are tough, you need to talk."

>German foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier May 14, 2007<

Just because Total got some rights doesn't mean everything is rosy.

quote:

First: British refuse to hand over proven criminal Berezovsky. Second: UK refuses to provide evidence of Lugovoy's actions in murder of Litvinenko. Third: UK acts as a provocator by stirring up the whole political scandal by expelling Russian diplomats and creating this whole conflict instead of handling like a man and realizing they cant have it their way all the time, especially when they lack the evidence or common sense.

Well which is more serious murder of one of your citizens (there is a trail of evidence... ) or 'corruption' (in Russia... never...). Really since the laws of both countries forbid extradition to one another neither really can follow that path. But the UK wasn't even allowed to talk to Lugovoy. Also the agent used would really only be accessible to a state given the cost.

I mean think about it would Putin protect someone who was talking to a traitor if he hadn't sent him?

___________________
If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium You guys are insane. Screwed in the head. Russia has AWESOME relations with Germany, France, Italy, Finland, etc. but Russia's not the one thats causing havoc here.

Good for them but they are EU members and they have all backed Britain over the Lugovoi case

quote:

First: British refuse to hand over proven criminal Berezovsky.

And what is the reason that Berezovsky is a "criminal"? Because he accused Putin of being undemocratic openly in the media and in Parliament? Because Putin wanted to take over his media company to shut him up there? Because he openly opposed what Russia was doing in Chechnya? FYI, it is illegal for the UK to extradite anyone who they suspect will face the death penalty or torture and they cannot extradite anyone who may be tried for political crimes (which clearly Berezovsky would). The UK cannot therefore, by law, extradite Berezovsky or Zakayev

quote:

Second: UK refuses to provide evidence of Lugovoy's actions in murder of Litvinenko.

You mean other than traces of polonium found everywhere Lugovoi travelled?

quote:

Third: UK acts as a provocator by stirring up the whole political scandal by expelling Russian diplomats and creating this whole conflict instead of handling like a man and realizing they cant have it their way all the time, especially when they lack the evidence or common sense.

A British citizen was murdered. The murderer put the lives of dozens of other British citizens at risk and you don't think the UK has the right to investigate this murder or try the main suspect? And where do you get this nonsense that there is no evidence from?

quote:

You guys are just trying to make an enemy in Russia. Berezovky and Zakayev are the real criminals who should be tried for crimes in UK, not given asylum. Its really pathetic ...

Unfortunately it is illegal for these two to be extradited to Russia, so it's an irrelevant argument...

quote:

I want and DEMAND proof of Putin's connections on this crime, and evidence of him going back to Soviet Union, and so on. You guys got nothing. And you guys are looking for a new enemy to fight, new war to stir because you guys are so bored and out of your mind that you need to do something. Thats lame.

Is anybody accusing Putin of murdering Litvinenko?

Actually can I ask you a few questions as I find it odd/amusing that someone can be so oblivious to the facts when defending their country as you. You seem to have some kind of warped view of Russia that is completely detached from reality...

1) Did you ever live in Russia?
2) If so, how old were you when you left?
3) And why did you leave Russia?

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Awesome relations? >German foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier May 14, 2007< Just because Total got some rights doesn't mean everything is rosy. Well which is more serious murder of one of your citizens (there is a trail of evidence... ) or 'corruption' (in Russia... never...). Really since the laws of both countries forbid extradition to one another neither really can follow that path. But the UK wasn't even allowed to talk to Lugovoy. Also the agent used would really only be accessible to a state given the cost. I mean think about it would Putin protect someone who was talking to a traitor if he hadn't sent him?

Was Berezovsky anti-Putin before he was caught embezzling money and laundering? No. He was pro-Putin, but Berezovky gone too far and so then he fled and decided to start the whole campaign. Makes perfect sense! Is Russia allowed to talk to Berezovsky? Hmmmmm ....

Are the relations between USA and EU all peachy and rosy as well (Iraq, Iran, secret CIA prisons, human rights, meat/modified foods bans, etc)? See what I mean? So whats the friggin point? There are no perfect relations, but overall, relations between prolific EU members and Russia are pretty darn good.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Actually can I ask you a few questions as I find it odd/amusing that someone can be so oblivious to the facts when defending their country as you. You seem to have some kind of warped view of Russia that is completely detached from reality... 1) Did you ever live in Russia? 2) If so, how old were you when you left? 3) And why did you leave Russia?

Yes I lived in Russia, for 13 years, and the reasons I left have nothing to do with this discussion or anything related to this whatsoever ... its because of assholes like Berezovsky that my family had to leave Russia ....

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Good for them but they are EU members and they have all backed Britain over the Lugovoi case And what is the reason that Berezovsky is a "criminal"? Because he accused Putin of being undemocratic openly in the media and in Parliament? Because Putin wanted to take over his media company to shut him up there? Because he openly opposed what Russia was doing in Chechnya? FYI, it is illegal for the UK to extradite anyone who they suspect will face the death penalty or torture and they cannot extradite anyone who may be tried for political crimes (which clearly Berezovsky would). The UK cannot therefore, by law, extradite Berezovsky or Zakayev

Money laundering and embezzlement are criminal acts, and in today;s Russia they are getting heavy on corruption ... slamming it hard. Right now there's a big scandal in the city of Tver' where half of the city's officials are in court over corruption and money laundering. So you see, Russia's trying to fix some of its problems, and Berezovsky sets examples to these butt-faces criminals to flee the country and claim Putin did this and that, and then call for overthrowing the government ... yes, thats a great way to clear your name.

quote:

You mean other than traces of polonium found everywhere Lugovoi travelled?

Yeah, Lugovoi with his family were present at many of these places ... yeah, he really wanted to kill his own family too, he really was a such a Putin agent ... LOL, rrrright. Its pretty easy for anyone to implant the polonium who has it, but if Lugovoi wanted to kill Berezovsky, he could have done it much earlier, as early as one year before when he was actually in Berezovsky's house in London ... and a poison less formidable and cheaper would've done it. A bullet to the head would been much less prolific. Polonium only makes very few parties evident as participants, like governments, in this case, Russian government would be an obvious choice ... Besides, thats not how anti-government people in Russia die, because thats too expensive and too much trouble and too much ... bullshit.

quote:

A British citizen was murdered. The murderer put the lives of dozens of other British citizens at risk and you don't think the UK has the right to investigate this murder or try the main suspect? And where do you get this nonsense that there is no evidence from?

They should try to prosecute him in Russia. Russian law, just like British forbids extradition of its citizens, so British government should not escalate the situation any further by dismissing the diplomats ... thats clearly British call for a conflict and more tense relations. Seriously, you really expect Putin to break his own constitution in order to fall for this crazy British pressure that is just ridiculous? Its insane if he accepted to break his laws, because THEN even I would call Putin anti-democratic for doing so. And British know it. They're playing a game to pin Putin in the corner to make him an enemy and put him in an awkward situation that he shouldn't even be blamed for in the first place, because the Russian government HAS NO CONNECTION to this crime. So why do British make such an international scuffle out of this? This is only a person-to-person crime, not a government level. This is proposterous. British government and politicians are clearly bent on a confict with Russia, for the reasons that I am still trying to comprehend.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture