http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...4&forumid=16&s=

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On OOKA-OOKA ME NACHOS ME PRESS KEYS ON COMPUTER GOOD

for once me and magnetonium are in complete agreement. sounds like a good number of people need a good dose of the police taser. sometimes violence is the only thing some people understand.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Why is it that so many Muslim immigrants who migrate to better living countries in Europe only to become so suicidal, no offense? I am tired of reading so many articles about Muslim immigrant violence in Europe, I know Muslims are better than that. In North America they dont move in and live off welfare and refuse to learn the language! Seriously, they dont expect the government to build their lives, force them to go to school, get jobs, and drop their religious fundamentalism and become normal citizens?

Dood, do you live in Toronto or not?
We have TONS of them but happily they don't seem to be as....well...screwball as their European brethren.
I'm not sure if it's the fact that they know the Canadian government will bounce their ass if they do, or that they're happy with the local politicians bending over backwards for them to secure their own votes in those high immigrant political wards...

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

I can't comment on The Netherlands or Belgium, but to be fair, the Turkish population in Germany is often treated like shit. It's been a huge societal issue for the last 10 years.

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being "treated like shit" is grounds for lawsuits or protests, NOT illegal civil unrest that leads to senseless violence and damage to property.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN being "treated like shit" is grounds for lawsuits or protests, NOT illegal civil unrest that leads to senseless violence and damage to property.

one can only take so much no?

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On OOKA-OOKA ME NACHOS ME PRESS KEYS ON COMPUTER GOOD

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I can't comment on The Netherlands or Belgium, but to be fair, the Turkish population in Germany is often treated like shit. It's been a huge societal issue for the last 10 years.

You know what's sad? In Germany, many Turks DONT EVEN SPEAK GERMAN for Christ's sakes! So despite the fact that immigrants are not treated well in Germany, if you dont know German, well then, thats just plain bad.

I watched a good program on Russian television some time back about some Turkish families who lives in Germany on welfare for over 10 years and they still dont speak German. After that, I wasnt surprised at all for poor treatment of immigrants in Germany.

EDIT: But treatment and tolerance against immigrants in Germany is very poor, mainly against the Muslim immigrants and Asians. They have been having a rise in anti-Semitism as well.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Hell, I know Italians/Greeks here in Toronto who don't speak a word of English after living here OVER 30 YEARS and somehow they still find a living.
Their world must be pretty small but they manage without freaking out, burning cars and harassing police...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Hell, I know Italians/Greeks here in Toronto who don't speak a word of English after living here OVER 30 YEARS and somehow they still find a living. Their world must be pretty small but they manage without freaking out, burning cars and harassing police...

True ... also, you'll never see Russians rioting like that ever. And I do speak English pretty dam well ;-) and proud of it. I became a citizen just 5 years ago.

Its sad that it turns out that its the native populations job and duty to make friends and try as hard as they can to integrate these immigrant communities into their culture. Its clearly should be the other way around. I am just happy to live here in Canada, I learned and integrated into the Canadian society quite well, I think. You wont hear me crying for not trying to adapt and change to fit in and be a productive member of Canadian society.

Ask yourself this important question - how come immigrants from other countries like Russia, Ukraine, China, eastern bloc dont do such violent acts? WHY its just Muslim immigrants in Europe that do this? Is it really a coincidence? Its pretty dam obvious that unlike the Muslim immigrants, who appear to sit in their subsidized poor districts and hope for government to do something about them, other immigrants from Eastern Europe, for example, work their asses off to get high education, very good jobs, and secure future for their families - they adapt, they change, they do whatever it takes to secure happy lives.

Is it really fair for me to blame religion for Muslim's struggles in Europe? To me it appears that some Muslims hold on to their fundamental views so much, they forget that they should be building happy lives as part of Western culture, they need to adapt, change and put sacrifices instead of trying to force their "superior" stands on how society and religion should be. There's prenty of rioters and flag burners and looters in Arab states who will happily embrace their poor brothers and sisters.

Muslim immigrants in North America are an excellent example of progress and successful immigration (to a greater degree). They for most part have adapted, changed, did whatever was necessary to build happy lives. And they STILL MANAGED kept their religion, views and cultural history as well. Something that European Muslim youth has failed to notice, IMO.

I am pissed off because a friend of mine from Netherlands got injured in an attack by these immigrants. He's fine now.

More beef on Germany:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/07/news/react.php

quote:

In Germany, a cautious sense that 'we don't have to fear this' By Richard BernsteinPublished: TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 8, 2005 BERLIN: Cars were set on fire in Berlin, in the German city of Bremen and in Brussels in what appeared to be copies of the communal riots in France, and European leaders warned that poor and dissatisfied youths of immigrant backgrounds lived all over Europe. The incidents late Sunday night, though minor so far, served as a reminder to many Europeans of the absence of any guarantee that the violence sweeping France could not spread to other countries in Europe that also have large, relatively poor and culturally alienated ethnic communities, most of them predominantly Muslim. And, to be sure, there already has been intense communal violence elsewhere in Europe, if nothing quite like the French disturbances, most notably the fighting between Pakistani and Bangladeshi immigrants and the police in several towns in northern England a few summers ago. And yet, as officials and community leaders watched the violence in France on television, there seemed to be at least a cautious and tentative conviction that the chance was small that riots on the scale of those in the Paris suburbs would break out in other countries. "We also have youth violence problems in Germany, but we haven't experienced cases of the dimensions of the blind violence that's taking place in France at the moment," Norbert Seitz, director of the German Forum for Crime Prevention, a private information center, said in an interview. From my point of view, we don't have to fear this in Germany," he said, citing the efforts of state and local governments and the police to create youth services and activities and to build relations with immigrant groups. Wolfgang Schäuble, a conservative member of Parliament scheduled to become interior minister of Germany, said: "The conditions in France are different from the ones we have. We don't have these gigantic high-rise projects that they have on the edges of French cities." Schäuble continued, however, that Germany needed to "improve integration, especially of young people" if violence is to be avoided. Many European countries, from Spain to the Netherlands to Italy, have substantial immigrant communities, including Muslims from North Africa and Turkey, and there is certainly a fear among many people in those countries that ghettoized, poor, culturally separate communities are becoming permanent, with all the sense of alienation and despair that such communities often entail. Particularly following the rise of global Islamic terrorism and highly publicized individual attacks perpetrated by European-born Muslims - most notoriously the murder last year of the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh - the nervousness provoked by growing Muslim communities has noticeably increased. In general, Europe, which has never developed an immigration culture, seems to have been less successful than the United States at integrating foreign communities and giving them a stake in a new national identity. And, at the same time, immigrant communities themselves have been less eager than traditional immigrants to the United States to take on a new identity, continuing to adhere to their traditional identities, languages and customs. Many analysts and community leaders in Germany and other countries said that France's problems with disaffected, violence-prone young people are both bigger and deeper than the problems of most other European countries. And so, if there was a consensus view about the prospect of large-scale copycat violence elsewhere in Europe, it was: Probably not right away, but it could happen in the future. José Luis Ábalos, a city councilman for the Socialist Party in Valencia, Spain, which has a large number of Muslim immigrants, said in an op-ed article Sunday in the ABC newspaper: "Compared with France, Spain has been attracting large numbers of immigrants for only a short period of time." But he continued, "It's important to observe that what is happening in our neighboring county could be a warning for what could happen here in the years ahead if serious, not marginal, integration policies are not developed." In Italy, the leftist opposition leader, Romano Prodi, a former president of the European Union, warned that poverty, unemployment and urban decay could cause ethnic violence similar to that of France. And yet, it seems unlikely that anyone who has toured the Paris suburbs with their ugly high-rise ghetto communities and France's aversion to any special treatment of ethnic minorities would be very surprised that the recent violence has taken place in France and not someplace else. "I'm always saying, Berlin Kreuzberg is an island of happiness compared with the situation in France," Daniel Cohn-Bendit, a French-educated member of the European Parliament from Germany, said in an interview with Der Spiegel. He referred to the district in Berlin where many of Germany's Turkish immigrants have settled. While much of Kreuzberg is poorer than other sections of Berlin, it bears no resemblance to Clichy or St. Denis or any of the other ghettos near Paris. Kreuzberg is very much a part of Berlin itself, with similar housing, restaurants and cafés and a mix of populations that give it a multicultural flavor reminiscent of neighborhoods in New York or Los Angeles. Unlike Clichy, for example, it is no ghetto. "It's not that there aren't problems," said Oguz Ucuncu, secretary general of the Islamic Community of Milli Görüs, one of the main Turkish organizations in Germany, "but here you don't have the sort of depressing environment you have in France, where there is no prospect of getting out." Ucuncu and Seitz both said that Germany has made an effort to identify Muslim organizations that can serve as intermediaries between the government, and especially the police, and Muslim neighborhoods, and to calm things when incidents occur. The German approach to immigrant communities is more integrationist in this sense than the French one, where a commitment to a kind of secular universalism has impeded even the recognition that immigrant groups have separate identities with separate needs. "Germans don't have an integration concept," Ucuncu said, "but we have an advantage in that we don't have the kinds of ghettos in Germany that they have in France, where politicians have refused to take steps for many years."

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Last edited by Magnetonium on Oct-26-2007 at 05:48

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Muslim immigrants in North America are an excellent example of progress and successful immigration (to a greater degree). They for most part have adapted, changed, did whatever was necessary to build happy lives. And they STILL MANAGED kept their religion, views and cultural history as well. Something that European Muslim youth has failed to notice, IMO.

Good point.

Canada has a very strong integration policy and there's lots of help in this regard.
ESL, Job workshops and several other non-profit organizations help make this a reality.
Kind of makes me wonder what kind of help there is in France, etc.?
Could be that ignoring 'the problem' has now only created one possibly...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

I'll post more on this subject when I have more time to read people's sources etc, but one thing I will say now is that to lump all "Muslim" riots into one category without looking at the individual reasons why these riots took place in the first place is just dumb.

The premise of this thread is that these riots are somehow all connected to religion rather than immigration/assmilation issues.

The French riots had nothing to do with religion but rather a hatred of the police by the population of the poorest suburbs of Paris (and we all know immigrants tend to find themselves living in the poorest areas, or ghettos if you will, and therefore all the problems associated with that), the British riots, again, had nothing to do with religion but were battles between members of the Asian community and the Nazis.

Of course, there have been riots that WERE to do with religion - the Danish cartoon protests spring to mind as obvious candidates, but to attempt to connect those riots to the ones in France are rediculous, as there simply is no connection (unless of course you're pursuing a particular agenda)

Somebody mentioned discontent against the state warrents lawsuits protests, not riots. True, maybe, but this is Europe and people tend to be more radically left wing than their counterparts in America etc and because of that going through "state means" to find a solution to problems isn't always the best option to them. During the early 90s there were huge riots across the UK to protest against a TAX! Riots with the police occured during the miners strikes. These were all committed by the indeginous community - nothing to do with religion - and lets not forget the LA riots in America!

My point: Just because riots take place and the people taking part happen to be born Muslims, it does not neccessarily (read usually) mean that Islam is the root cause of the riots. And certainly to construct a list of riots committed by Muslims and attempt to link them is idiotic because there are no comparisons and they all have their own localised reasons...