Hi,

I've actually posted some questions on the music production thread but not sure how much attention it will get there, this is maybe more appropriate thread.

I created a track (see link), had good feedback and also sent it to a label who gave pretty much same response as comments I got when I originally posted on this site.

Feedback was:
Positives: Good melodies, mixing, arrangement
Negatives: Need to work on the percs and kick isn't powerful enough.

Now I've read so many articles on kicks and percs and I just can't seem to get it right. I'm trying to work out the best way to achieve the points noted by comments.

If you could listen to the track and then perhaps help out on some of the questions.

So to add some power to the kick, should I be doing either of or all of the following?
1. Add another kick sample but use filters to remove the lows so create a sort of overlap? Surely that is only going to change the sound of the kick?
2. Use compression on the kick only? Currently I've only used compression on the whole track at the mixdown.
3. Raise the volume?

For the percs I've generally used loops from Vengeance sounds. Again should I
1. Add invidual percs using a drum editor like Redrum or something?
2. Lift the volume of the existing loops?
3. Use synths to create unique perc sounds?

I really think I'm on the right track but just can't seem to get that extra bit of professionalism into the mix and its....well bloody frustrating!!

Heres the link.

[[ LINK REMOVED ]]


cheers
Reno

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quote:

Originally posted by Reno Currently I've only used compression on the whole track at the mixdown.

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>>> Beatport Stuff <<<

right. something a bit more sensible now.....

if your using vengeance kicks they probably dont need to be compressed, but i would certainly research more into compression if i were you. try fiddling about with the eq on the kick more.

and raising the volume can work, providing it still fits well with the other volumes of the mix (but no clipping obviously).

and i recommend experimenting with layering kicks as you mentioned, you might create something you like. check out http://trance.nu/v4/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29373

its a good tutorial from airwave/lolo etc about how he layers kicks.

also, check out the "perfect kick" thread

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=276466

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Last edited by Acton on Apr-08-2008 at 14:51

You mention you only use vengeance loops for percussion.

Whilst technically there isn't necessarily anything wrong with this, I believe you should be building up your own loops using individual sounds.

Main reason being you have full control over each single element and can program the loop however you see fit. You can also mix each individual drum hit to get the levels between them just right. By altering the patterns, you can create subtle variations in the percs over time. You can add automation to certain percs as well to achieve certain effects.

If you have never tried building your own percussion before, then to begin with, you may find that what you put together sounds worse than the vengeance loops. But with practice you will be able to do loops of a high quality.

Then if you like, you can layer one ore two or the vengeance loops to your own percussion as a way of "filling" the gaps.

Also, the vengeance loops have already been heavily processed and in my experience, on their own, they often don't gel well with the other sounds in my track due to the seperate processing they have had.

Hope this helps. Good news is there is a good selection of individual hits in the vengeance packs so you have the tools required.

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I like to cut up some loops for my percussion. I'll do this myself or get an rx2 file, load it up into FL Slicer, and make a new pattern underneath the kick drum. Here is a quick example where I just used an 808 kick and two (maybe three) other drum loops:

http://peregrin.jmu.edu/~watkindj/s..._8-beat_1_1.mp3

Thanks for the responses. Will give all those tips a try hopefully on the weekend.

Another quick question - Would mastering the track have helped bring out the kick & highs at all?

Reno

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quote:

Originally posted by Reno Thanks for the responses. Will give all those tips a try hopefully on the weekend. Another quick question - Would mastering the track have helped bring out the kick & highs at all? Reno

No, not in the way you intend it, it wont "fix" anything. All this, seriously, is tweaking of eq+sometimes compression+volume of each individual sample so that everything fits together

Id say, first of all, tweak your kick (layer it, eq it, compress it, in no particular order!!) until you get something that sounds good enough for you (I like compression to tighten it up then eq to bring up the bass end alot because compression lowers it most of the time on kicks).

After the kick, work on the bass, to make it flow and fit perfectly with the kick. If you cant already feel a little bit the groove youre trying to create with only the bass and kick, adding percs and hats on it wont sound particularly good, or how you want it to sound. Really go step by step.

Then, work on the hihats/percs. try passing them through a highpass, and boosting 3 to 10kHz a bit, see how it sounds. It usually makes then alot "sharper", and be sure to lower the volume if you you boost high freq's alot.

Anyways, thats somewhat how I work, you can find what works for you, or try this out, ie step by step tweaking of Kick->bass->percs.
I like working like that because trance is about layers and textures of sound, that create a rythm, a groove, or however you want to call it.

Sorry Reno, this is not really helpfull... But I liked your tune and I think the kick is good...

if you think your kick drum is too weak, the simple and obvious thing to do is just change the sample or layer it with a kick drum with more power in the upper mids/highs. Whats the point in trying to make a bad sample sound good, or try to fix it in mastering when you could just be using a different sample?

And in my opinion Vengeance samples are horrible and very overcompressed, even the loops. It sounds like some of them are actually ripped from mp3 to my ears.

Actually, the problem isn't the kick, although I can see why it would sound that way to a lot of people. It could probably use a touch of compression and maybe some EQ to thin out the sub-lows, but really I think the kick is fine.

The real problem is that the rest of the percussion is practically nonexistent. No groove, no drive. When you've got nice snappy hats, snares, crashes, tribal drums, that sort of thing, they tend to coincide rhythmically with the kick and make the kick itself sound more interesting. Even certain synth sounds can help provide that kind of drive if they've got an appropriate "click" at the beginning. Most of the time this would be a stab, but some leads are able to do this as well.

What I'm hearing here is just a string or pad, a delayed atmospheric kind of arp sound, and incredibly low-volume and thin hi-hats that aren't even playing for most of the track. There's not even any clap or snare, let alone more exotic percussion sounds. Or if there is then I can't hear it.

Finally, even if you totally redid the percussion, you'd still have a problem with the bassline. It's not an incredibly original bassline but that's OK; more importantly, there's very little separation between the bass and kick. They're both around the same frequency band, same volume, similar rhythms, and fall on the same beats. Now, it sounds like you might have picked a Vengeance kick which tend to hog a big part of the spectrum, but you can still compensate for this with EQ, timing offsets, compression, and of course rhythmic variations. Or if you're a lazy tool you can just bass-duck and pretend everything's OK.

Mastering will not fix any of these problems. Mastering does not in fact fix any problems, it just makes the track and little louder and occasionally darker/brighter if you want it to. If you even need to ask whether professional mastering could benefit your track, the answer is no, it can't. You'll know when a track is ready for that stage.

Don't fret over it too much - it's a common problem. My drums sounded a little bit like that too when I first started out.

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