Can you give us a link to his essay? I just found this e-print, but it's not purchasable

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Originally posted by Lira Can you give us a link to his essay? I just found this e-print, but it's not purchasable

I feel bad, what with it being copyrighted and all...


[[ LINK REMOVED ]]

I think the argument is flawed in that it presupposes that once a threat is made the threatened individual no longer has a choice. This is incorrect, the threatened person has a choice; they can choose to commit the immoral act or they can choose to risk having the threat executed. The moral choice would be to abstain from the immoral action and risk the execution of the threat. I find it funny that people are rarely willing to accept that some times maintaining one's moral or otherwise personal convictions has consequences and often involves sacrafice.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by D-res I feel bad, what with it being copyrighted and all... [[ LINK REMOVED ]]

True that, I'm used to stuff being in the public domain, sorry

(By the way, can any of you use megaupload? It says there's no bandwidth for non-premium users You can take the file down if you prefer, by the way)

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I think the argument is flawed in that it presupposes that once a threat is made the threatened individual no longer has a choice. This is incorrect, the threatened person has a choice; they can choose to commit the immoral act or they can choose to risk having the threat executed. The moral choice would be to abstain from the immoral action and risk the execution of the threat. I find it funny that people are rarely willing to accept that some times maintaining one's moral or otherwise personal convictions has consequences and often involves sacrafice.

That was my first impression as well, reason why I'd like to read the real thing. I don't think his argument is that weak... at least, I'd rather believe it isn't

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quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I think the argument is flawed in that it presupposes that once a threat is made the threatened individual no longer has a choice. This is incorrect, the threatened person has a choice; they can choose to commit the immoral act or they can choose to risk having the threat executed. The moral choice would be to abstain from the immoral action and risk the execution of the threat. I find it funny that people are rarely willing to accept that some times maintaining one's moral or otherwise personal convictions has consequences and often involves sacrafice.

I agree the Principle is flawed in that respect however I feel it's not necessarily about not having the ability to choose otherwise, but rather, choosing otherwise could be illogical depending on the circumstances, which are endless.

If you're presented with the option of killing one person or have your whole family slaughtered, the logical choice would be to simply kill the one person, although this of course delves into individual morality and will.

If a person doesn't give a shit about their family, however one threatens them with the death of their family, unknowing of their careless attitude and then attempts to coerce the person into killing their friend to save their family, you run into a wall. The person who cares little or none about their family sees saving their friend as the logical choice, even if say, their friend is a deaf, blind, quadriplegic who contributes nothing to society. The utilitarian would beg that they just off the cripple, but I seem to be getting into a whole 'nother ballpark.

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Originally posted by Lira True that, I'm used to stuff being in the public domain, sorry (By the way, can any of you use megaupload? It says there's no bandwidth for non-premium users You can take the file down if you prefer, by the way)

works fine for me, I'm not premium. Just type in the 3 letters, wait for the 40-odd seconds to count down and you should be all set.

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Originally posted by D-res If you're presented with the option of killing one person or have your whole family slaughtered, the logical choice would be to simply kill the one person, although this of course delves into individual morality and will.

Not really.

Let's suppose, in this scenario, that if you don't kill an individual, your whole family is annihilated by someone else. The fact that someone else decided to exterminate your family is not a decision of yours, so it's illogical to believe the fault would fall upon you and that your action will have a direct impact on this.

The person who's threatening you could be lying: your family might not get killed even if you don't give in to the threats, and your family could be slaughtered in spite your obedience.

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Originally posted by D-res works fine for me, I'm not premium. Just type in the 3 letters, wait for the 40-odd seconds to count down and you should be all set.

It probably works only in North America

Edit: w00t!　

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Last edited by Lira on Nov-08-2007 at 13:57

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Originally posted by Lira Not really. Let's suppose, in this scenario, that if you don't kill an individual, your whole family is annihilated by someone else. The fact that someone else decided to exterminate your family is not a decision of yours, so it's illogical to believe the fault would fall upon you and that your action will have a direct impact on this. The person who's threatening you could be lying: your family might not get killed even if you don't give in to the threats, and your family could be slaughtered in spite your obedience.

But if you refuse to follow through and your family dies would you not feel guilt and is to be guilty not to be morally responsible?

sonix would not approve of Jones4 being named Black.