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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

despite what this guy says, hitler certainly didnt manage 98% of the vote. why is it so hard for people to check their facts? its really annoying when you're trying to take some self-important, whining person seriously.

and a bit about the nature of the topic wouldn't have hurt shaolin

edit: damned images...

anywayz, hitler didn't even get 50%.

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You clearly missed the point. Roughly 38 million Germans voted for Hilter on August 19, 1934, that's roughly 90% of registered voters. I guess that totally detracts from his overall presentation.

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z You clearly missed the point. Roughly 38 million Germans voted for Hilter on August 19, 1934, that's roughly 90% of registered voters. I guess that totally detracts from his overall presentation.

who cares about the 1934 plebiscite? that wasn't a vote to elect hitler. what he said was factually incorrect and i found his delivery annoying in the extreme. if any of my lecturers had fumbled around with such a (soapbox) delivery i would've walked out of class.

anywayz, i assume he's making some comparison to the current state of american politics, and i find that comparison laughable. its clowns that cry "hitler!" from the rooftops that detract from meaningful and accurate criticism of the adminstration.

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Only if you split hairs to the point were a total symmetrical reflection is required to make any sort of comparison. Tyranny comes in progression, not a hard concept to understand or demonstrate. Things have been getting progressively worse as far as both foreign and domestic policy is conerned. But I suppose the fact that the President or Secretary of Defense can declare any American an "enemy combatant" to be held indefinetly, stripped of habeus corpus and even citizenship, tried and executed in a private military tribunal, be tortured, monitored like a rat, doesn't phase some people. There are plenty of fucking parallels between Nazi Germany and the current state of affairs so to dismiss thing getting worse or even more similar as some looney illegitimate concern is pretty fucking stupid, not to mention demonstrates an incredibly naive outlook to choose and a complete lack of wisdom, foresight, or understanding of history. Is Bush Hitler? No, not exactly, but it's just fucking stupid to impose an intellectual and cultural taboo on making comparisons between the state of affairs in the two countires, limiting perception of it to some narrow minded literal comparison of personalities. Can you honestly see things getting any better just because someone else is in office in the not too distant future, and all that legislation being repealed? And are you capable of critical thought not confined to a narrowed down self-defying frame work of psuedo-rationalistic nonsense?

EDIT: And if it's all really so hillarious and ludircrous to you, why not just laugh it off? But instead you choose to display a serious lack of confidence in your own world veiw by responding with posts demonstrating your insecurities. You've made a pattern of it by now. Atleast us crazy uber "radical lefties," or "conspiracy theorists," or whatever the fuck you want to call us have legitimate believable motivations and objections based on genuine concerns of safety, security, liberty, and ethics and not compromising them as opposed to an obession with certain threads and topics because of somebullshit excuse and accusation of being "intelltually dishonest." And the calibur of riducule I'd expect from a high school kid isn't exactly very impressive eigther. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? It's getting kind of old man.

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Nov-15-2007 at 04:00

It's totally the Jews' fault for getting killed


yeah.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN dont argue with the yanks nutter, they know best!

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Only if you split hairs to the point were a total symmetrical reflection is required to make any sort of comparison. Tyranny comes in progression, not a hard concept to understand or demonstrate. Things have been getting progressively worse as far as both foreign and domestic policy is conerned. But I suppose the fact that the President or Secretary of Defense can declare any American an "enemy combatant" to be held indefinetly, stripped of habeus corpus and even citizenship, tried and executed in a private military tribunal, be tortured, monitored like a rat, doesn't phase some people.

i don't see the reflection. hell, you have a congress and a senate for starters. hitler basically liquidated the reichstag. you have a government that can prevent the "fuhrer" from doing anything he pleases. you have a whole other party in opposition to the "nazis". indeed you have a few of those that stand against the fuhrer that are members of the nazi party.

basically, there is light at the end of your tunnel. anybody can change those laws to re-establish a balance between security and liberty. even those of us across the world can see the opposition to some of the lengths the current administration has gone to.

i want an argument from you that illustrates how this state of affairs is somehow stagnant or permanent, or (given the dems' recent election victories) going unnoticed by the populace generally? in other words, what is to stop the democratic leadership from changing some of the draconian measures??

this is where the the comparison is laughable. you have two houses of a regularly elected parliament with dissenting voices, independent courts, and a free press. if you think what's happening in the US now is akin to germany in the 30s, then i suggest you brush up on your history. whilst there might be similarities, i dont understand why you choose to ignore the larger context (which i have attempted to briefly outline).

quote:

There are plenty of fucking parallels between Nazi Germany and the current state of affairs so to dismiss thing getting worse or even more similar as some looney illegitimate concern is pretty fucking stupid, not to mention demonstrates an incredibly naive outlook to choose and a complete lack of wisdom, foresight, or understanding of history. Is Bush Hitler? No, not exactly, but it's just fucking stupid to impose an intellectual and cultural taboo on making comparisons between the state of affairs in the two countires, limiting perception of it to some narrow minded literal comparison of personalities. Can you honestly see things getting any better just because someone else is in office in the not too distant future, and all that legislation being repealed? And are you capable of critical thought not confined to a narrowed down self-defying frame work of psuedo-rationalistic nonsense?

i don't know. it is certainly possible. and that's the point. the possibility in and of itself makes the situations fundamentally different.

basically, nobody is going to make any real progress as long as people are using catchcries like "hitler!". its completely counter productive. perhaps those aware of such similarities to germany should be exploring these concerns without the emotionalist (and through context- irrelevant) appeals?

quote:

EDIT: And if it's all really so hillarious and ludircrous to you, why not just laugh it off?

because i find it annoying. i find it disheartening that the left has been so demoralised and marginalised in the last 20 years that this is the best kind of argument that finds its way onto youtube or tranceaddict? where is the real, compelling analysis of bush's crimes against the state and the people of the US? imo these knee-jerk "hitler!" commentaries do far more harm to the very real and serious accusations you could level at the government.

quote:

But instead you choose to display a serious lack of confidence in your own world veiw by responding with posts demonstrating your insecurities.

you're gonna have to elaborate on that. i have NFI what youre on about.

quote:

You've made a pattern of it by now. Atleast us crazy uber "radical lefties," or "conspiracy theorists," or whatever the fuck you want to call us have legitimate believable motivations and objections based on genuine concerns of safety, security, liberty, and ethics and not compromising them as opposed to an obession with certain threads and topics because of somebullshit excuse and accusation of being "intelltually dishonest."

im not doubting the veracity of people's motivations or their "correctness" in their (very real) concerns. im doubting their capacity to make compelling cases that can actually change the way things are, and in my opinion that is the only point (beyond the masturbation we might engage in here) is it not? you could almost call it PR. there are ways, and there are ways, and this is not the way of doing business if this fool wants to effect any meaningul improvement.

quote:

And the calibur of riducule I'd expect from a high school kid isn't exactly very impressive eigther. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? It's getting kind of old man.

eh? could you please highlight the particualr part in this thread where you felt i was ridiculing anyone?

seriously shaolin, you've gotta learn to chill mate we disagree (shock horror!) about the quality of this guys argument. im not sure where i deserved the spitting venom?

take it easy

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in other words, you survived (for instance) mccarthyism and hoover, what makes the bush administration inherently different to other sordid parts of the US' history?

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quote:

Originally posted by eROs.au It's totally the Jews' fault for getting killed yeah.

What?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

@ PKC: Oh man, I'm not even going to bother to read that right now, so, right now, at least for the time being, let's literally keep it to simple responses like this:

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z rant

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN rant

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z rant

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN rant

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z @ PKC: Oh man, I'm not even going to bother to read that right now, so, right now, at least for the time being, let's literally keep it to simple responses like this:

fine by me!!

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I agree with PKC... that guy takes hyperbole to a new extreme. The Patriot Act is badnewsbears but comparing it to Krystallnacht and the Holocaust? No.

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