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Originally posted by Magnetonium Its one thing that there's Hamas, which is weak and small and can hardly control the situation, or the Iranian-backed Hezbollah which can sometimes attack and kill innocent Israeli civilians.

"Weak and small"? Are we talking about the same Hamas here?
And, I think I misunderstood you...you're talking about killing innocent Israelis, like it's ok. In that case, I'd tell you to go f yourself, but since it's unclear, I won't.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Israel then does worse things - senseless bombings, raids, construction of Soviet-style Berlin walls,

We bombed that building knowing that no-one was there. Like it says, it was a message. About the wall, well...let's just say I don't wanna leave the borders of Israel-Gaza open. Also the comparison you did was quite stupid because the Berlin wall was a seperation of two sides of the same country. Here, it's used as a border to prevent from terrorists going into cities inside Israel.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium and then cutting off hundreds of thousands of poor and suffering Palestinians from the entire world to try to "weaken" Hamas.

Right..."poor palestinians", "from the entire world", bah ha...give me a break, we don't have the responsibility to provide palestinians with electricity and water. They wanted an independent state - here, now they've got one.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Not only it punishes average Palestinians, it refuses to grant them an independent state when its clear they dont care about Palestinians.

Mmmm true, I don't care about palestinians. Why should I? They've elected Hamas as their leaders, so they should go and ask Hamas for water and electricity.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Israel is ruled by morons.

True.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium With their strategy and actions, Hamas and its supporters are only becoming more powerful. Israel is one of the dominant countries in the region, and have a big say in what goes - instead of taking the blow and not retaliate against stupid militants they instead committ even worse crimes.

Not retaliate?! I want to see you live in fear all you life, that some fucking moron with some fertilizer and metals he found in the streets can build a missile with How-to instructions from Hamas and launch it into your country...then, I might consider replying to that idiotic comment.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Or then both sides agree to ceasefire, and all of a sudden Israel and USA decide to take out some Hamas and Hezbollah officials. Yeah, sure, that will bring peace and stability. What difference does it make if they kill one senior Hamas official? Another one will take his place. But the situation will get worse politically.

First of all, he was Hizballah's head of operations, not as quite replaceable as you think. Second, it was a direct hit. Third, he wasn't connected to Hamas.

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A few comments...

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Originally posted by ronk "Weak and small"? Are we talking about the same Hamas here? And, I think I misunderstood you...you're talking about killing innocent Israelis, like it's ok. In that case, I'd tell you to go f yourself, but since it's unclear, I won't.

I agree with what you say here. Hamas is not small or weak (as their "takeover" of Gaza showed - not that they weren't elected to do prescicely the role they "took over" from Fatah anyway)

The numbers of Israeli civilians killed during the current round of hostilities is nowhere near as high as the fatalities on the Palestinian side. True, the Palestinian militias deliberately target innocents in their attacks, but the Israelis, altho targetting military targets, show no restraint and no regard for innocents that get caught up in the cross fire and that's just as bad (and has worse results) - and that's not to mention the deliberate targetting of innocents via policies such as house demolitions etc.

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About the wall, well...let's just say I don't wanna leave the borders of Israel-Gaza open

The wall he referred to is the West Bank wall. Everyone knows (now) where the Gaza-Israel border is - can you say the same about the West Bank-Israel border? No you can't because your government hasn't even decided that yet (officially anyway - the wall seems to me to be a quite obvious attempt to unilaterally define the border taking as much land off the Palestinians as they can)

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Right..."poor palestinians", "from the entire world", bah ha...give me a break, we don't have the responsibility to provide palestinians with electricity and water. They wanted an independent state - here, now they've got one.

No they haven't got an "independent" state. If you honestly think that (which I don't believe you do) then you don't know what an independent state is! For a start, Gaza is intricately linked to the West Bank. They have never been considered as seperate entities (as much as Israel is trying to achieve that and the Hamas "takeover" has given that impression). Therefore, as there is no resolution looking likely to settle the West Bank issues, you cannot make that claim. And if you want to refer only to Gaza as being your "independent state" then you still cannot make that claim because Israel controls the borders and even on the Egyptian controlled border it is done so on the say so of Israel. As long as Israel does not allow the Gazans to control their own borders (forget the Israel border, or even the "Egyptian controlled" border they still have a coast and should be able to receive supplies etc from around the world via its port)

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Mmmm true, I don't care about palestinians. Why should I? They've elected Hamas as their leaders, so they should go and ask Hamas for water and electricity.

If you don't care about the Palestinians what on Earth makes you think they should care about you?! I'm sorry but if that attitude is shared by your fellow countrymen then I fail to see how you can criticise anything the Palestinians do because it seem like you're just as extreme in your views towards Palestinians as Hamas et al are in their views towards Israelis...

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Not retaliate?! I want to see you live in fear all you life, that some fucking moron with some fertilizer and metals he found in the streets can build a missile with How-to instructions from Hamas and launch it into your country...then, I might consider replying to that idiotic comment.

Lets face facts. Israel has shied away from final status issues forever. These are thhe issues that push the Palestinians towards terrorism because they can't see any other way of achieving their aims - which would be an independent Palestinian state, not the destruiction of Israel as you will no doubt reply, and attitudes of the Palestinians recorded directly after Oslo prove that. There need to be a full withdrawal from the West Bank to '67 borders and the Palestinians need to be given the freedom afforded to all independent states in regards to the economy and foreign relations etc. Then I think you will begin to see a reduction in violence (and if not, well Israel will have done what the world wanted them to do and would probably recieve more sympathy for their actions)

I dont have much time for another Palestinian-Israel fiasco, which is an endless and hopeless situation politically - hopeless threads mirror the sentiment, so I'll try to be brief.

First, if you guys think that Hamas is strong by taking over Gaza - pffft - its just some militants fighting for scraps of Israel's table, wow thats powerful. Hamas, with its primitive tactics and lack of good political direction and sensible political approach has proved its critics right.

They were elected to office because of Israel alone. Israel treats Palestinians like shit. And rightfully, Palestinians dont want pathetic balls-licking leadership of Fatah either (which has hardly achieved anything). They wanted change, and I am sure they weren't very optimistic either.

Ronk is OK with killing of innocent Palestinian civilians by Israeli bombs and raids, but I am not. I am not OK with Hamas' tactics of targeting Israeli civilians either, which I clearly stated. Based on ronk's approach, which mirrors the approach of some notable Israeli and Palestinian politicians of similar logic and thinking, the situation in the region will only continue to deteriorate.

Ronk, you keep retaliating and the cycle will go on. And then dont complain that the situation in the region is not getting better - noone else is to blame. The cycle of violence comes around and goes around. There's no magic wand either. If you think you can hurt Palestinians, dont be an ignorant fool and think that it wont come back to bite you in the arse, which many lazy rich and fat Israeli politicians fail to see. Right now they're feeling strong, safe and cozy backed by USA's military machine and Jewish-lobbied US politicians. But all happy rides come to an end, and sooner or later Palestinians, and more importantly, Arabs will be stronger and Israel will be forced to make concessions that even right now it cant afford. So I think Israel should deal with these things now, and concede to the terrible suffering it has inflicted on Palestinians and Arabs - or else Israel should rightfully expect worse things in the future. Current cycle of violence against Israel should be blamed on Israel's politicians. Because Israel has the upper hand in the region, and they use it to stirr up more bullshit. Someone should tell them to get a brain!

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

well said georgy and Magnetonium

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Originally posted by George Smiley The numbers of Israeli civilians killed during the current round of hostilities is nowhere near as high as the fatalities on the Palestinian side. True, the Palestinian militias deliberately target innocents in their attacks, but the Israelis, altho targetting military targets, show no restraint and no regard for innocents that get caught up in the cross fire and that's just as bad (and has worse results) - and that's not to mention the deliberate targetting of innocents via policies such as house demolitions etc.

Let's try and think why less Israelis are getting killed.
In Gaza: Hamas militants, deliberately, are located inside civillians homes, around their neighbourhoods etc., and I'm pretty sure most of the innocent civillians aware of what's going on. You can actually see sometimes here in the news photos of missile launchers trying to shoot from inside a house. Which (probably) led to the idea of house demolishing.
In here: military bases are located as far as possible from civillian areas (while Hamas still launching missiles at civillians). But just try to think what would have happened if the base that Gilad Shalit was abducted from would've been near civillian homes. The death toll would probably be even.

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Originally posted by George Smiley The wall he referred to is the West Bank wall. Everyone knows (now) where the Gaza-Israel border is - can you say the same about the West Bank-Israel border? No you can't because your government hasn't even decided that yet (officially anyway - the wall seems to me to be a quite obvious attempt to unilaterally define the border taking as much land off the Palestinians as they can)

Agree.

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Originally posted by George Smiley No they haven't got an "independent" state. If you honestly think that (which I don't believe you do) then you don't know what an independent state is! For a start, Gaza is intricately linked to the West Bank. They have never been considered as seperate entities (as much as Israel is trying to achieve that and the Hamas "takeover" has given that impression). Therefore, as there is no resolution looking likely to settle the West Bank issues, you cannot make that claim. And if you want to refer only to Gaza as being your "independent state" then you still cannot make that claim because Israel controls the borders and even on the Egyptian controlled border it is done so on the say so of Israel. As long as Israel does not allow the Gazans to control their own borders (forget the Israel border, or even the "Egyptian controlled" border they still have a coast and should be able to receive supplies etc from around the world via its port)

I didn't really mean "state", but...uh, maybe territory. And why don't you think they're two seperate entities? Hamas controls Gaza. Who controls the West bank? Fatah. There you go.
And about letting them control the ocean border - I'm all for it, as long as they don't try to pull stuff like Karine A off.
And do you really think Egypt is doing whatever Israel wants?

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Originally posted by George Smiley If you don't care about the Palestinians what on Earth makes you think they should care about you?! I'm sorry but if that attitude is shared by your fellow countrymen then I fail to see how you can criticise anything the Palestinians do because it seem like you're just as extreme in your views towards Palestinians as Hamas et al are in their views towards Israelis...

I don't think they care about me, that's the thing! Why do you think they do?! It's not like we're best pals!
And let's say Israel didn't have electricity, and Palestinians had - do you think, really, they'd even consider supplying it to us?
The "I don't care" thing was reffered to reducing (not "cutting off" as many may say - hospitals ans such still have power supply) the electricity supplied by us to them.
And how you got to the conclusion that I'm an extremist?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Lets face facts. Israel has shied away from final status issues forever.

True.

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Originally posted by George Smiley These are thhe issues that push the Palestinians towards terrorism

Right, the status issues pushed them towards terrorism, yeah...

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Originally posted by George Smiley because they can't see any other way of achieving their aims

You nailed it.

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Originally posted by George Smiley which would be an independent Palestinian state, not the destruiction of Israel as you will no doubt reply

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
From Hamas charter.

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Originally posted by George Smiley There need to be a full withdrawal from the West Bank to '67 borders and the Palestinians need to be given the freedom afforded to all independent states in regards to the economy and foreign relations etc. Then I think you will begin to see a reduction in violence (and if not, well Israel will have done what the world wanted them to do and would probably recieve more sympathy for their actions)

That's the point where I don't agree and think you're wrong, but it'll probably take me hours to write down what I think, so let's stop this right here.

That's by the way my last post in here, because as I said before in order to write here in this forum you need lots of time and energy, which I don't have.

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Originally posted by ronk Let's try and think why less Israelis are getting killed. In Gaza: Hamas militants, deliberately, are located inside civillians homes, around their neighbourhoods etc., and I'm pretty sure most of the innocent civillians aware of what's going on. You can actually see sometimes here in the news photos of missile launchers trying to shoot from inside a house. Which (probably) led to the idea of house demolishing. In here: military bases are located as far as possible from civillian areas (while Hamas still launching missiles at civillians). But just try to think what would have happened if the base that Gilad Shalit was abducted from would've been near civillian homes. The death toll would probably be even.

Well this kind of reply is exactly what Magnetonium was referring to when he talked about Palestinian threads spiralling out of control. I quite like the debates but hey ho, you've actually made a few good comments further below that I think will make for a good debate anyway. All I will say on this subject is that both sides are fighting to the best of their abilities and resources. Israel uses big guns and missiles, the Palestinians fight a traditional guerilla war hiding among the population. The key to defeating a guerilla commando group is to remove their most powerful weapon - the support they receive from the population that hides them...think about that!

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I didn't really mean "state", but...uh, maybe territory. And why don't you think they're two seperate entities? Hamas controls Gaza. Who controls the West bank? Fatah. There you go. And about letting them control the ocean border - I'm all for it, as long as they don't try to pull stuff like Karine A off. And do you really think Egypt is doing whatever Israel wants?

Lol if you didn't mean "state" then your earlier comments were even less relevant! How can you think they'd be happy with a few scraps of land thrown to them by Israel but no control over that land to make a success out of themselves?! As for whether they are seperate or not, well Gaza was originally part of Egypt and the West Bank originally part of Jordan. However, you can't also forget that up until the creation of Israel in 1948, many of the people that lived in what is now Israel had to flee (we'll not get bogged down in an argument about why) to the West Bank and Gaza (not to mention elsewhere where Palestinian refugees fled to). Gaza and West Bank's history has been linked for as long as Israel's history and just because they are not physically connected in no way means they are not politically connected because they are (I'd build a "Channel Tunnel" between the two). And Hamas won the elections in Gaza and West Bank - Fatah, with the help of America/Israel (of all people!) refused to hand over security control to Hamas and when the security situation deteriorated in Gaza due to Fatah inefficiency Hamas took action

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And how you got to the conclusion that I'm an extremist?

I said your views towards the other side were just as extreme as those who hate Israelis, is that not a fair comment? If you don't care about all Palestinians, and you don't care about what happens to them, how are you any better than those Palestinians that would think the same about Israelis?

But more than that, you attitude, imo, prevents you from understanding that Israel actions in the occupied territories is actuall detrimental to Israeli security...

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Right, the status issues pushed them towards terrorism, yeah...

This is what I meant above. You can't see how much the settlements cause such a problem in the occupied territories. They cut the West Bank up, get first refusal on water, make it necessary for the army to be in the West Bank and are generally full of total bastards. All these factors have an effect on the Palestinians (and here's a clue - it doesn't make them happy). Add to that the land theft being undertaken by the wall and the fact Palestine is not able to make a successful economic situation for themselves because Israel controls the borders, land and prevents them from having foreign relations.

Palestinians don't commit terrorism because of a natural hatred for Israelis, it is the factors above that create the hatred that drives them to commit terrorism and if you can't understand that then you're gonna have to learn to live with terrorism for the rest of your life...

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You nailed it.

Well create an environment where Palestinians believe they can achieve their aims peacefully (like they believed after Oslo)

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"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." From Hamas charter.

The PLO's Charter also said similar...

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That's by the way my last post in here, because as I said before in order to write here in this forum you need lots of time and energy, which I don't have.

Why couldn't you have written that at the start of your post and not let me respond to all your points before I saw it?!