Ever heard of the 'God Gene' or VMAT2? Or DMT (Dimethyltryptamine)? Your brain naturally produces levels of DMT (that wouldn't normally cause anywhere near the same effects as taking large external doses). Just some food for thought .

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Ever heard of the 'God Gene' or VMAT2? Or DMT (Dimethyltryptamine)? Your brain naturally produces levels of DMT (that wouldn't normally cause anywhere near the same effects as taking large external doses). Just some food for thought .

no, could you elaborate?

but before you do, in response to the quote, i would struggle to believe that belief is anything but nurture. there, can i have my $4M?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN no, could you elaborate? but before you do, in response to the quote, i would struggle to believe that belief is anything but nurture. there, can i have my $4M?

Sure, but since you got the $4M now, could you pay of my student loans in exchange .

I just edited my post with some links, have to get up for class soon, it's almost 4 am and i haven't even slept yet lol . Lemme know if you have any questions after you check out those links. I'll check this thread in the morning... errr.. later today .

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Sure, but since you got the $4M now, could you pay of my student loans in exchange . I just edited my post with some links, have to get up for class soon, it's almost 4 am and i haven't even slept yet lol . Lemme know if you have any questions after you check out those links. I'll check this thread in the morning... errr.. later today .

wicked, cheers for the links and if i had 4 million of course i will pay off your loans!

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quote:

Dr. Hamer narrowed his search for the suspected spirituality gene to nine specific genes known to play major roles in the production of monoamines. These chemicals include serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine, which regulate functions such as mood and motor control

so, all we need is to get the world to abuse ecstasy and the belief in god will disappear?

quote:

A variation in a gene known as vesicular monoamine transporter, or vmat2, seemed to be directly related to how volunteers for Dr. Hamer's experiment scored on his self-transcendence test.

i find the research terribly problematic. for instance, what (if any) other "spiritual" or "superstitious" contexts might be influenced by this particular gene? is it merely a gene that perpetuates some kind of suspension of disbelief? (no im not trying to offend anyone, its an honest question). did they test this gene in relation to, say, the JFK conspiracy theories? astrology?

in other words, does this gene really have an influence over a belief in god, or is does it merely make the person more inclined to accept the intangible? the latter i could be convinced of, but im not so sure about the former. to me, the concept of "god" is far too specific and, if we're talking about biological evolution, rather irrelevant in terms of adding to a species' possibility of survival (indeed, in modern times the exact opposite could be argued )

i honestly dont understand a gene that would give a human being a pre-disposition to believe in something that does not, in and of itself, aid in its biological evolution. i think religion, like marxism or favouring the greenbay packers, is purely a result of socialisation and choice.

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quote:

but before you do, in response to the quote, i would struggle to believe that belief is anything but nurture.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/blo...om07_index.html

There's definitely more at work than simply brainwashing of each generation by the previous here. I suspect that the intuitive beliefs that children are apparently born with do in fact offer an evolutionary advantage (that is, compared with simply being born without them.) Even to the extent that it leads to false inferences (e.g. flat earth, "promiscuous teleology," et cetera) there may be some advantage because it helps allow individuals to predict many of the very simple phenomena they are likely to encounter with at least a reasonable degree of accuracy.

I don't think that they account for religious belief generally, but I do think that there's substantial evidence that they can help facilitate it.

Of course, this doesn't answer the question entirely. Most people come to realize that the Earth is not, in fact, flat. However, there doesn't seem to be the same sort of realization regarding mind/brain dualism, magical thinking, and other mistaken ideas that are related to religious belief despite the fact that these notions are very nearly as demonstrably false. I think that's where nurture comes in -- it inhibits the ability of people to overcome their intuition and see the truth.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i would struggle to believe that belief is anything but nurture.

If that were the case, then it would be difficult to explain why basically all cultures in history have developed "religions" with common elements: the belief in unseen (or "minimally counterintuitive") beings, a sense of the "sacred" and "profane", participation in eleborate rituals, the use of prayer and sacrifice and so on. It would be hard to explain the ubiquity of this behaviour without presuming that at least part of the phenomenon is neurological in origin.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN in other words, does this gene really have an influence over a belief in god, or is does it merely make the person more inclined to accept the intangible? the latter i could be convinced of, but im not so sure about the former.

The study shaolin just linked to makes reference to spirituality, not belief in god specifically.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a direct link between certain genes and predisposition towards spirituality. I have no problem believing that belief in god is determined by brain states, that brain states are determined by the architecture of the brain and that the architecture is brain is determined by genes. If the development of a part of the brain integral to the formation of religious beliefs (lymbic system, frontal lobes etc.) can be altered by a defective gene, then it makes sense (although it is something of an oversimplification) to talk of a genetic basis for religious belief.

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to me, the concept of "god" is far too specific and, if we're talking about biological evolution, rather irrelevant in terms of adding to a species' possibility of survival (indeed, in modern times the exact opposite could be argued ) i honestly dont understand a gene that would give a human being a pre-disposition to believe in something that does not, in and of itself, aid in its biological evolution.

I doubt that the predisposition towards belief in God in itself has any direct evolutionary benefit, but the sort of neurological functions that predicate religious belief certainly do.

It is more useful, for instance, to have a "promiscuous teleology" of the sort that is mentioned in the article that Arbiter just posted ("That rustling in the leaves was caused by something that is out to get me! Run away!"), than a more prudent teleology ("That rustling in the leaves doubtless has a rational explanation. Let me go up for a closer... ARGH! My Face!"). It is useful, in terms of our ability to learn, understand and remember, to attribute agency to innanimate objects ("Water always wants to reach the low ground. Let's look for some there.") and to believe that there is always someone watching us... even if they don't have bodies and we can't see them (which discourages behaviour that may damage our standing in a group). There are other examples, but religion is bascially just the byproduct of cognitive functions that, in themselves, do have a clear evolutionary benefit even if religious belief itself does not.

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http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so, all we need is to get the world to abuse ecstasy and the belief in god will disappear?

That could explain the Godlessness on TA and PDD don't you think ?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Ever heard of the 'God Gene' or VMAT2? Or DMT (Dimethyltryptamine)? Your brain naturally produces levels of DMT (that wouldn't normally cause anywhere near the same effects as taking large external doses). Just some food for thought .

I read a book once that suggested that since the pinneal gland, the seat of our conscious expression and filtration, seems to be purposed around the production and regulation of DMT, that perhaps individuals who were able to see the world beyond what it was in order to elevate the rest of us to new planes of information were in fact genetically different in that their pinneal gland overproduced DMT.

Jesus was one potential example.

I'm not sure if I buy it, but I can see it, since from personal experience, DMT as a spiritual tool is definitely one of the most intense experiences one can have in regards to discovering just where their ego lies in the collective, and just how expansive this life and universe really can be.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby I read a book once that suggested that since the pinneal gland, the seat of our conscious expression and filtration, seems to be purposed around the production and regulation of DMT, that perhaps individuals who were able to see the world beyond what it was in order to elevate the rest of us to new planes of information were in fact genetically different in that their pinneal gland overproduced DMT. Jesus was one potential example. I'm not sure if I buy it, but I can see it, since from personal experience, DMT as a spiritual tool is definitely one of the most intense experiences one can have in regards to discovering just where their ego lies in the collective, and just how expansive this life and universe really can be.

Would that book happen to be DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences by Rick Strassman MD?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Would that book happen to be DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences by Rick Strassman MD?

A book by Cliff Pickover which is basically his theoretical observations on the physical sciences, chemistry, psychology, technology, life, and DMT. His books are fun and intriguing at the same time, with sources to boot, and definitely worth a read if you're interested in that kind of stuff. I gave my copy to a friend, which I kind of regret; c'est la vie.

I have not read the Strassman literature yet but have heard it mentioned several times and take it as no coincidence.