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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
"Standing Up" the Iraqi Army. . .

"When the Iraqis stand up, we'll stand down." -President Bush

It appears we'll NEVER stand down. I'm so pissed my government would rather spend hundreds of billions of dollars on a piece of shit country thousands of miles away, instead of fixing domestic problems, such as the infrastructure, education, social security, and perhaps even healthcare for the uninsured.

This has got to be the worst presidency since Richard Nixon, if not the worst. Richard Nixon didn't waste money on shithole countries. He actually got us out of Vietnam...

quote:
'Standing up' Iraq army looks open-ended By CHARLES J. HANLEY, AP Special Correspondent
1 hour, 9 minutes ago



Iraq's new army is "developing steadily," with "strong Iraqi leaders out front," the chief U.S. trainer assured the American people. That was three-plus years ago, the U.S. Army general was David H. Petraeus, and some of those Iraqi officials at the time were busy embezzling more than $1 billion allotted for the new army's weapons, according to investigators.

The 2004-05 Defense Ministry scandal was just one in an unending series of setbacks in the five-year struggle to "stand up" an Iraqi military and allow hard-pressed U.S. forces to "stand down" from Iraq.

The latest discouraging episode was unfolding this weekend in bloody Basra, the southern city where Iraqi government forces — in their toughest test yet — were still struggling to gain the upper hand in a five-day-old battle with Shiite Muslim militias.

Year by year, the goal of deploying a capable, freestanding Iraqi army has seemed always to slip further into the future. In the latest shift, with Petraeus now U.S. commander in Iraq, the Pentagon's new quarterly status report quietly drops any prediction of when homegrown units will take over security responsibility nationwide, after last year's reports had forecast a transition in 2008.

Earlier, in January last year, President Bush said Iraqi forces would take charge in all 18 Iraqi provinces by November 2007. Four months past that deadline, they control only half the 18.

Responsibility for these ever-unfulfilled goals lies in Washington, contends retired Maj. Gen. Paul D. Eaton, who preceded Petraeus as chief trainer in Iraq.

"We continue to fail to properly resource and build the very force that will enable a responsible drawdown of our forces," Eaton told The Associated Press.

Retired Gen. Barry R. McCaffrey, a West Point professor and frequent Iraq visitor, also sees insufficient "energy" in the U.S. effort. "Even now, there is no Iraqi air force; there's no national military medical system; there's no maintenance system," he told a New York audience on March 13.

The current chief trainer counters that his Multi-National Security Transition Command-Iraq, known as MNSTC-I, has made "huge progress in many areas, quality and quantity."

"But we're not free of difficulties," Lt. Gen. James Dubik told reporters on March 4.

A look back by the AP, as the Iraq conflict enters its sixth year, finds the $22 billion training effort has been a story of uncertain steps and policy reversals, corruption, questionable numbers and distrust, ending with an Iraqi military with narrow capabilities and years more "standing up" ahead.

The first reversal came even before the 2003 U.S. invasion, when the Pentagon discarded prewar plans that called for restructuring the 400,000-man Saddam Hussein-era army into a postwar force of 150,000 to 200,000.

Instead, U.S. occupation chief L. Paul Bremer ordered the old army disbanded, and the Bush administration opted for a token military force to guard Iraq's borders — an "afterthought," said Eaton.

"President Bush declared 'mission accomplished' on 1 May, and on 9 May I get a phone call, 'Get thee to Iraq and rebuild the Iraqi army.' I looked at my wife and she said, 'A little late for that.' You would have expected this to be an ongoing program," Eaton recalled.

The makeshift plan envisioned putting one 700-man battalion at a time through a nine-week training course — a rate that would have produced a mere 8,000 troops over two years.

Eaton persuaded Defense Department officials to raise that target to 40,000 troops by late 2004, but even that was a "patently inadequate force," says Ali Allawi, later Iraq's defense minister.

"Deep suspicions began to be harbored as to the true intentions" of the Americans, Allawi writes in his memoir, "The Occupation of Iraq."

Abdulwahab al-Qassab, a retired Iraqi major general who observed developments from a post at Baghdad University, contends the Americans never wanted to rebuild a solid Iraqi army.

"It wasn't welcomed by the Israelis, the Kurdish factions that used to fight the Iraqi army, and some of the Shiites," al-Qassab said in an interview.

Walter B. Slocombe, who was Bremer's chief defense aide, denied to the AP that Israel's interests influenced U.S. actions, but he and other U.S. officials have acknowledged that the animosity of Iraq's Kurds and Shiites to the old Iraqi army helped shape those early decisions.

As 2003 wore on, Vinnell Corp., the U.S. military contractor hired to do the training, proved unequal to the task. The first Iraqi battalion, graduating in October, quickly fell apart because of desertions, and the second battalion refused to fight against insurgents in Fallujah in April 2004. The Jordanian army, meanwhile, was asked to take over training Iraqi officers.

As of June 2004, when Bremer's occupation authority gave way to a sovereign Iraqi government, the military still numbered only 7,000 men, as the focus shifted to fielding Iraqi police. Paul Wolfowitz, deputy defense secretary, predicted — incorrectly — the Iraqis could soon "take local control of the cities."

The evolving training program, now a mixed U.S.-Iraqi effort, was plagued with problems. Petraeus' new MNSTC-I was slow to be staffed. Meanwhile, top Defense Ministry officials, including the minister, Hazem Shaalan, were methodically looting the procurement budget of at least $1.3 billion, Iraqi investigators allege. Shaalan, who denies the accusations, and most of the others left the country by mid-2005.

By then the Pentagon was reporting 60,000 "trained and equipped" Iraqi troops available, a number achieved only by integrating lightly armed national guard units into the army. American commanders "do not report reliable data" on training and equipping Iraqi forces, U.S. government auditors complained. By late 2005, the U.S. command had to acknowledge that only one of 86 Iraqi army battalions was ready to fight on its own.

The Iraqis still were not given artillery, big mortars or other heavy weapons. Iraq's political unpredictability and dangerous sectarian-political divides clearly made the Americans wary that heavy weapons might be turned against them, concludes Arab military analyst Nizar Adul Kader.

"This could have been one of the fears that Americans had to take into consideration," said Kader, a retired Lebanese major general.

Auditors also found that the training command kept such poor records on distribution of personal weapons to Iraqi soldiers that some may have been passed on to insurgents or anti-American militias.

When Sunni-Shiite hostilities exploded into a bloodbath in 2006 — up to 60 civilian killings a day in Baghdad alone — it exposed the unreliability of the Iraqi military, some of whose units, paralyzed by desertions and reluctant officers and troops, failed to back up U.S. operations.

The U.S. command's goals for a homegrown takeover of most Iraqi security slipped — from spring 2006, to late summer, and then beyond. In November 2006, the Pentagon forecast that all 18 provinces would come under Iraqi security control "in 2007."

Reviews in 2007, by a congressionally mandated commission, by Government Accountability Office analysts, by the Pentagon itself, found that Iraq's sectarian animosities had permeated and weakened army units, heavily Shiite and Kurdish. A civil war among Kurdish, Shiite and Sunni factions could shatter the military.

Last November, GAO auditors again sharply questioned Pentagon claims on the number of Iraqi battalions able to operate "independently," since such units often depend on U.S. fuel, ammunition and other supplies, American advisers and intelligence, and U.S. air support.

Desertions persisted. In its latest quarterly report, in early March, the Pentagon says some 197,000 military personnel have now been trained, but that number includes the equivalent of two divisions — 27,000 men — estimated to have gone AWOL in 2007. Some 224,000 police are listed as trained, including an unknown number who left their posts.

The Iraqi military's list of unmet needs remains long: artillery and modern armor; advanced communications and intelligence systems; a logistics network able to supply everything from food and fuel to transport and ammunition; combat hospitals; airpower.

"This is not a balanced fighting force," said al-Qassab, the retired Iraqi general. "It's only people armed with assault rifles and pickup trucks and they go and raid like a militia."

The Iraqis and Americans are working to make Iraqi logistics self-sufficient by mid-2009. But as for "fire support," training command spokesman Lt. Col. Dan Williams said, "heavier artillery is still a ways down the road."

Regarding Iraq's tiny air force, a handful of helicopters, old transports and light planes, "in my opinion, we were late to start on this," Air Force Maj. Gen. Robert R. Allardice told the AP last June, as he took over aviation training in Baghdad.

Today, as he leaves the command, Allardice confirms there are still no plans for modern jet fighters for the Iraqis, only small, propeller-driven attack planes.

Chief trainer Dubik, meanwhile, is troubled by a shortage of midlevel Iraqi officers. The Pentagon's March report says this shortage "will take years to close."

It looks like years, not months, will be the measure of progress. After a half-decade of war, Dubik says Iraqi defense officials don't expect to take over internal security until as late as 2012, and won't be able to defend Iraq's borders until 2018.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080329...to_grow_an_army


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Old Post Mar-29-2008 20:20  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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zen_zo
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Mar 2008
Location:
Re: "Standing Up" the Iraqi Army. . .

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton


This has got to be the worst presidency since Richard Nixon..


-1

Its worse since democracy..

It shows flaws in democracy.. and good points in Saddam who was better than Bush. Sometimes dictatorship is better than democracy.

Old Post Mar-29-2008 20:23  United Kingdom
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Re: Re: "Standing Up" the Iraqi Army. . .

quote:
Originally posted by zen_zo
-1

Its worse since democracy..

It shows flaws in democracy.. and good points in Saddam who was better than Bush. Sometimes dictatorship is better than democracy.


If you call it democracy? Our "democracy" works like this...

1. We vote the politician into office.
2. They do whatever they want as long as it's not illegal.

So they've got a blank check for the term they're in office. No referendums, polls mean nothing, the will of people means nothing. A simple vote for office has become the standard of the will of people. There is no say in how things are done, all we get to do is choose the politician who gets the job. That is not democracy in my opinion. My version of "direct democracy" would hold the president accountable for any blunders undertaken. In that case, we would have been out of Iraq years ago.


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Old Post Mar-29-2008 20:43  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

So why is Iraq a 'shithole' again?


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Mar-29-2008 23:12  Canada
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hardcore trancer
Mystic Mind



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Toronto,Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
So why is Iraq a 'shithole' again?



How do you look at it then? A free democratic country were people die daily and bombs could go off at anytime and anywhere?


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Old Post Mar-30-2008 02:50 
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Lebezniatnikov
Stupidity Annoys Me



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: DC
Re: Re: Re: "Standing Up" the Iraqi Army. . .

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
If you call it democracy? Our "democracy" works like this...

1. We vote the politician into office.
2. They do whatever they want as long as it's not illegal.

So they've got a blank check for the term they're in office. No referendums, polls mean nothing, the will of people means nothing. A simple vote for office has become the standard of the will of people. There is no say in how things are done, all we get to do is choose the politician who gets the job. That is not democracy in my opinion. My version of "direct democracy" would hold the president accountable for any blunders undertaken. In that case, we would have been out of Iraq years ago.


Term limits = accountability to the voters.

But when people don't show up to vote, politicians aren't held accountable.

And with the thread topic... I'm not altogether convinced withdrawing from Iraq is the best option at this point. Yes, we should never have gone in the first place, and yes, the security situation in Iraq is terrible right now... but I worry that it pales in comparison to what we would create by leaving.

Before she got kicked off the Obama campaign for an off-the-record gaffe, Samantha Power (who is renowned for her work on the origins of genocide and Western complicity) warned that while going into Iraq was a mistake of epic proportions, withdrawing now would only leave the Iraqi people exposed to even more violence. Basically her argument is that we were stupid enough to stir the pot, and now we'd be morally remiss if we let the Iraqis bear the full brunt of our mistake.

I'm somewhere in between on this, which is why I liked Joe Biden's Iraq plan - it was the right balance of pragmatism with doing what is right under the circumstances. I think Obama and his advisers ave borrowed a fair amount from Biden on this one.


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Old Post Mar-30-2008 03:02  United Nations
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
So why is Iraq a 'shithole' again?


I dunno...maybe because of the civil war, millions of refugees, terrorism, curruption, waste... Tell me, what would happen to you if you took a nice litte stroll in Baghdad. You, a westner can not travel around without a heavy escort. Think about what the averate Iraqi had to deal with...You honestly think this is not a 'shithole' situation? Wow...


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Old Post Mar-30-2008 07:54  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
How do you look at it then? A free democratic country were people die daily and bombs could go off at anytime and anywhere?


Are you saying it's not like that in other countries anywhere on this planet?


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Apr-01-2008 01:02  Canada
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
I dunno...maybe because of the civil war, millions of refugees, terrorism, curruption, waste... Tell me, what would happen to you if you took a nice litte stroll in Baghdad. You, a westner can not travel around without a heavy escort. Think about what the averate Iraqi had to deal with...You honestly think this is not a 'shithole' situation? Wow...


Sounds like a lot other places that could be named besides Iraq.

I didn't say that Iraq wasn't a shithole, I was asking you and what the quantifier was for becoming one since it's highly subjective.

Honestly, what the hell does one expect after turning a country upside down?
It's going to a lot of time to fix that place that's for sure...


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Apr-01-2008 01:05  Canada
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Sounds like a lot other places that could be named besides Iraq.

I didn't say that Iraq wasn't a shithole, I was asking you and what the quantifier was for becoming one since it's highly subjective.

Honestly, what the hell does one expect after turning a country upside down?
It's going to a lot of time to fix that place that's for sure...


Well, now you know the criteria. It also doesn't end there...

Over 4.2 million Iraqis have been displaced by the war which is 16% of the Iraqi population. 2.2 million have left the country altogether. This means BRAIN DRAIN. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, scientists, PROFESSIONALS, have for the most part packed their bags and left. The UN believes more than 40% of the Iraqi middle class have left the country.

I assume by your statement, "Why is Iraq a 'shithole' again?", you meant to counter my assertion that the situation inside Iraq, despite all this SURGE propaganda, is the worst the world, hands down. Not even Darfur, as bad as that place is, can report such numbers of death, destruction, and chaos as Iraq. Thankfully, I hope you pulled back from this assertion.

Now, what do I expect? Well, the Bush administration has set up a Shiite puppet regime, and has invested everything in propping up this regime. They will continue to prop up this regime as long as possible. The real solution is to withdraw completely from Iraq and issue an apology to the Iraqi people. Following that, the US should pay reparations to Iraq, instead of enriching private contractors who have little to show after 5 years of 'reconstruction'. Let the Iraqis build up their own country again. Yes, it will take a long time for Iraq to become stable again, but like Vietnam, foreign occupation only stirs up resentment in the occupied territory. Especially in Iraq, nationalism calls for the ending of the foreign occupation, and many groups within Iraq are dedicated toward that end. What the hell are we doing spending hundreds of billions of dollars anyways on a country half way around the world. What about us? There are too many domestic problems here at home. Why the hell does Iraq get priority. Really, fuck Iraq/Bush regime...


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Old Post Apr-01-2008 01:50  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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hardcore trancer
Mystic Mind



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Toronto,Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
It's going to a lot of time to fix that place that's for sure...


So you are prepare to stay in Iraq for another 50 years or more and you dont mind having more people to die and suffer and not mention money being wasted simply because "it is going to take a lot of time to fix the place"?


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Old Post Apr-01-2008 02:09 
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josh4
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: New York City

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
It's going to a lot of time to fix that place that's for sure...

I'm curious whos fault you think that is.

Perhaps the scientists from peer reviewed journals that follow the Gore-mind-hive? Good god, hes behind it all!

Old Post Apr-01-2008 02:47  United States
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