Become a part of the TranceAddict community!Frequently Asked Questions - Please read this if you haven'tSearch the forums
TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Obama killing the economy and stock market? Huh?
Pages (13): [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Share
Author
Thread    Post A Reply
MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City
Obama killing the economy and stock market? Huh?

After reading several threads about Obama being in office for about 7 weeks, and how he's somehow able to have destroyed the stock market and effectively tank the economy all by himself (or at least the large majority of fault is his), I think we need to back up and see exactly what led us to this point first:

(shamelessly stolen from http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/...4877/572/706261):

quote:
One of the more ridicules statements going around over the last few weeks is "this is an Obama bear market." This statement is, well, ill-informed at best and fraudulent at worst. Let's look at why.

First -- who is saying this? Such economic luminaries as John Hawkins at Right Wing News (who actually asked Is Obama Deliberately Tanking the Stock Market?), Powerline, Brit Hume along with a host of other right wing bloggers. What all of these people have in common is their incessant chearleading during the Bush years despite mounting evidence of an upcoming recession. There are the same people who argued that ... housing is a small part of the economy ... most people are paying their mortgages ... the US economy will decouple from the rest of the world .... it's the greatest story never told ..... you get the idea. Simply put, these are people who have distinguished themselves by being some of the best contrary indicators around.

Secondly, the SPYs -- the tracking ETF for the S&P 500 -- dropped from (roughly) 155 in the summer of 2007 to (roughly) 85 at the end of last year. Yet I don't remember any of them saying that was the Bush bear market -- even though that's a drop of roughly 43%. No -- it's the new President that's causing the problems. In addition, when Bush took office the SPYs dropped from roughly 130 at the begging of 2007 to 85 in the fourth quarter of 2002. Yet somehow I don't think any of them blamed Bush's policies for the drop. Then it was the "lasting effects of the Clinton recession" or something similar.

What all of these idiots are forgetting is the simple fact that the economy is the backdrop of the stock market. When the economy does well the stock market does well. When the economy doesn't do well, the stock market doesn't do well. And to that end, the economy isn't doing well right now. Let's look at some recent news events.

[QUOTE]Real gross domestic product -- the output of goods and services produced by labor and propertylocated in the United States -- decreased at an annual rate of 6.2 percent in the fourth quarter of 2008,(that is, from the third quarter to the fourth quarter), according to preliminary estimates released by theBureau of Economic Analysis. In the third quarter, real GDP decreased 0.5 percent.

http://bea.gov/newsreleases/nationa...newsrelease.htm


GDP was dropping like a boulder last year. If memory serves, I do believe Obama wasn't quite in office yet.

February 2009 employment rate:

quote:
Nonfarm payroll employment continued to fall sharply in February (-651,000), and the unemployment rate rose from 7.6 to 8.1 percent, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. Payroll employment has declined by 2.6 million in the past 4 months. In February, job losses were large and widespread across nearly all major industry sectors.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm


Yeah, I know, Obama was already in office then, and he could have easily turned things around in just under 2 weeks if he really wanted to. Dang.

quote:
Reports from the twelve Federal Reserve Districts suggest that
national economic conditions deteriorated further during the reporting period of January through late February. Ten of the twelve reports indicated weaker conditions or declines in economic activity; the exceptions were Philadelphia and Chicago, which reported that their
regional economies "remained weak." The deterioration was broad based, with only a few sectors such as basic food production and pharmaceuticals appearing to be exceptions. Looking ahead, contacts from various Districts rate the prospects for near-term improvement in economic conditions as poor, with a significant pickup not expected before late 2009 or early 2010.

Consumer spending remained sluggish on net, although many Districts noted some improvement in January and February compared with a dismal holiday spending season. Travel and tourist activity fell noticeably in key destinations, as did activity for a wide range of nonfinancial services, with substantial job cuts noted in many instances. Reports on manufacturing activity suggested steep declines in activity in some sectors and pronounced declines overall. Conditions weakened somewhat for agricultural producers and substantially for extractors of natural resources, with reduced global demand cited as an underlying determinant in both cases. Markets for residential real estate remained largely stagnant, with only minimal and scattered signs of stabilization emerging in some areas, while demand for commercial real estate weakened significantly. Reports from banks and other financial institutions indicated further drops in business loan demand, a slight deterioration in credit quality for businesses and households, and continued tight credit availability.

http://federalreserve.gov/fomc/beig...304/default.htm


(side note - awesome time to buy a house - my wife and I just got locked down at 5.125% today).

Finally, from the FDIC:

quote:
Expenses associated with rising loan losses and declining asset values overwhelmed revenues in the fourth quarter of 2008, producing a net loss of $26.2 billion at insured commercial banks and savings institutions. This is the first time since the fourth quarter of 1990 that the industry has posted an aggregate net loss for a quarter. The ?0.77 percent quarterly return on assets (ROA) is the worst since the ?1.10 percent in the second quarter of 1987. A year ago, the industry reported $575 million in profits and an ROA of 0.02 percent. High expenses for loan-loss provisions, sizable losses in trading accounts, and large writedowns of goodwill and other assets all contributed to the industry's net loss. A few very large losses were reported during the quarter-four institutions accounted for half of the total industry loss-but earnings problems were widespread. Almost one out of every three institutions (32 percent) reported a net loss in the fourth quarter. Only 36 percent of institutions reported year-over-year increases in quarterly earnings, and only 34 percent reported higher quarterly ROAs.

http://www2.fdic.gov/qbp/2008dec/qbpall.html


I think it's also worth pointing out Occrider's posts here and here, and asks those against Obama's policies to try and wait for more factual data before condemning his policies (i.e. come back to reality for a moment).

Things were shit before Obama came, and they were well on their way to becoming even shittier - and nothing about Obama's policies had anything to do with that. You want to wail and moan about what this Administration is doing to the economy and the stock market? Then please tell us your gripes and incessant rants about what the Bush Administration did and why all those wonderful Conservative "economists" on blogs and elsewhere decided to sit by the sidelines and watch it all crumble down. The double-standard is fun, but it doesn't go unnoticed.

Until then, let's wait a little while longer to see if there's any impact at all, positive or negative.


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Mar-09-2009 18:30  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for MisterOpus1 Click here to Send MisterOpus1 a Private Message Add MisterOpus1 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
LazFX
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2004
Location: 9th Circle

This is why I still lurk here, great posts like these!

quote:
Things were shit before Obama came, and they were well on their way to becoming even shittier - and nothing about Obama's policies had anything to do with that. You want to wail and moan about what this Administration is doing to the economy and the stock market? Then please tell us your gripes and incessant rants about what the Bush Administration did and why all those wonderful Conservative "economists" on blogs and elsewhere decided to sit by the sidelines and watch it all crumble down. The double-standard is fun, but it doesn't go unnoticed.

+1

but I am still worried....

Old Post Mar-09-2009 18:54  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for LazFX Click here to Send LazFX a Private Message Visit LazFX's homepage! Add LazFX to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

Hey Opus--the market looks forward, not backward! The gripe isn't that the plan is killing the market, rather it's more along the lines that the plan is long on spending and short on details and is heavy on welfare and wealth transfer and light on real stimulus. In short, it's half-baked and the market players aren't biting. Just sayin'.

Old Post Mar-09-2009 19:07  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for Shakka Click here to Send Shakka a Private Message Add Shakka to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Capitalizt
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2005
Location: USA
Re: Obama killing the economy and stock market? Huh?

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
After reading several threads about Obama being in office and nothing about Obama's policies had anything to do with that.


True, his policies haven't had any effect yet but sentiment can be way ahead of the curve. All this talk about "carbon credits" (invisible tax hikes on energy companies) along with higher capital gains and income tax rates has definitely put a damper on investor sentiment. Markets react to what they believe the future will be like...and what people perceive is an unfriendly climate for the investor/business class in the coming years.

Old Post Mar-09-2009 19:12  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for Capitalizt Click here to Send Capitalizt a Private Message Add Capitalizt to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

Hard-line conservatives want what the Democrats had in being able to blame Bush (justly) for the decline of this country.. Amusing..


___________________

Old Post Mar-09-2009 19:27  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
Click Here to See the Profile for Krypton Click here to Send Krypton a Private Message Visit Krypton's homepage! Add Krypton to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Rasidel Slika
ominous



Registered: Mar 2002
Location: usa

I feel his announcements over the past weeks HAVE indirectly resulted in market dives. I feel if he had made different choices, the markets would have reacted positively. I am not happy about this.

Old Post Mar-09-2009 22:59 
Click Here to See the Profile for Rasidel Slika Click here to Send Rasidel Slika a Private Message Visit Rasidel Slika's homepage! Add Rasidel Slika to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by delobbo
I feel his announcements over the past weeks HAVE indirectly resulted in market dives. I feel if he had made different choices, the markets would have reacted positively. I am not happy about this.


Can you demonstrate with supporting evidence a causation rather than a correlation in your contention here? Because I think I could say the exact same thing except replace "his announcements" (pertaining to Obama) with "economic indicators", "unemployment rates", etc. that demonstrate more of a direct causation to the market diving rather than what Obama has been saying.


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Mar-09-2009 23:14  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for MisterOpus1 Click here to Send MisterOpus1 a Private Message Add MisterOpus1 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Hey Opus--the market looks forward, not backward! The gripe isn't that the plan is killing the market, rather it's more along the lines that the plan is long on spending and short on details and is heavy on welfare and wealth transfer and light on real stimulus. In short, it's half-baked and the market players aren't biting. Just sayin'.


That's a fair point. I would also like to hear more details on the stimulus plan. I think that problem is shared with people on both sides of the aisle.


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Mar-09-2009 23:15  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for MisterOpus1 Click here to Send MisterOpus1 a Private Message Add MisterOpus1 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Rasidel Slika
ominous



Registered: Mar 2002
Location: usa

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Can you demonstrate with supporting evidence a causation rather than a correlation in your contention here? Because I think I could say the exact same thing except replace "his announcements" (pertaining to Obama) with "economic indicators", "unemployment rates", etc. that demonstrate more of a direct causation to the market diving rather than what Obama has been saying.

if you don't "see it" the way I (and many others) do, I don't think I'll have any success in convincing you, regardless of what I write.

ps. I voted for O.

Old Post Mar-09-2009 23:17 
Click Here to See the Profile for Rasidel Slika Click here to Send Rasidel Slika a Private Message Visit Rasidel Slika's homepage! Add Rasidel Slika to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by delobbo
if you don't "see it" the way I (and many others) do, I don't think I'll have any success in convincing you, regardless of what I write.


On the contrary, I'd be happy to "see it" just as you do, but you're going to have to do more convincing than merely tell me that I need to "see it" like you and so many others. Some evidence to support your contention would be good at this point. I provided evidence that things were well on their way without any involvement of Obama, and I would contend that regardless of who was in charge now things would have continued to dive in a very similar, if not identical fashion as they are now.

quote:
ps. I voted for O.


Awesome.

I like hot wings.


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Mar-09-2009 23:56  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for MisterOpus1 Click here to Send MisterOpus1 a Private Message Add MisterOpus1 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Rasidel Slika
ominous



Registered: Mar 2002
Location: usa

OBVIOUSLY, we can't PROVE with evidence what would have happened if other decisions were made. But I don't think O's decisions are helping the confidence level of markets, businesses, consumers, and the country as a whole.

Old Post Mar-10-2009 00:00 
Click Here to See the Profile for Rasidel Slika Click here to Send Rasidel Slika a Private Message Visit Rasidel Slika's homepage! Add Rasidel Slika to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by delobbo
OBVIOUSLY, we can't PROVE with evidence what would have happened if other decisions were made.


That wasn't my question. I was asking if you could demonstrate with verifiable evidence a direct causation between Obama's policies and/or statements and the markets tanking as of late. IOW, make a connection between actual decisions made now with evidence to support your contentions.

quote:
But I don't think O's decisions are helping the confidence level of markets, businesses, consumers, and the country as a whole.


This may be true. However it may be equally true that what's occurring in the markets are a direct result of what was laid right in front of Obama just before he came into office. I would state that since the markets tend to follow the situation of the economy (like the author of the article mentioned above), this is more likely than the markets tanking at anything Obama is saying at this point. We're both speculating on this, but I am attempting to support my speculation with evidence.

However what is not speculation is the fact that things were headed the wrong way at a very accelerated rate before Obama took office, and he cannot be put to blame on the state of that acceleration as a result (at least not until we actually see some evidence of his stimulus taking place in a positive or negative fashion).


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Mar-10-2009 00:11  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for MisterOpus1 Click here to Send MisterOpus1 a Private Message Add MisterOpus1 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message

TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Obama killing the economy and stock market? Huh?
Post New Thread    Post A Reply

Pages (13): [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 »  
Last Thread   Next Thread
Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackUnknown track from Sasha @ Sensation White Belgium 2005 [2005] [1]

Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackSystem F - "Solarize" [2003]

Show Printable Version | Subscribe to this Thread
Forum Jump:

All times are GMT. The time now is 19:05.

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
[IMG] code is ON
 
Search this Thread:

 
Contact Us - return to tranceaddict

Powered by: Trance Music & vBulletin Forums
Copyright ©2000-2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Privacy Statement / DMCA
Support TA!