I agree with you. I have a lot of respect for our armed forces and veterans.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN dont argue with the yanks nutter, they know best!

Pretty much on par with that extremist church whose members protest at war funerals...

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Originally posted by colonelcrisp I am not a fan of conflict, but I have a great deal of respect for those who not only risked their lives in the service of their country, but those who gave the ultimate sacrifice while serving their country.

Fuck them. I don't give two shit about dellusional retards or their support base. If they're not a family member or friend of yours, it's not like you really give a fuck to begin with. Get over this childish obsession for a sense of belonging, especially when it's some imaginary identity like nationality. This concept of serving "a country" or "your country" is pretty fucking retarded to begin with. It doesn't really mean anything to begin with. Define country, then perhaps the phrase might entail some sort of comprehensible meaning, chances are, it'll still be quite juvenile and retarded. I have no sympathy (well, it's not a hard and fast rule) for people idiotic and degenerate enough to be state sponsored murderers. And if you died "serving your country," well you fucking deserve it you muderous peice of shit. If you're going to kill somebody, you'd better have a pretty good fucking reason to do it, and "serving you country" certainly isn't one of them. One less moronic degenerate peice of shit in the world isn't going to break my heart. Being in the military doesn't magically imply somehow that your intention is to serve the interests of your "fellow country men." You're a tool of the bureaucracy of state and corporations, nothing more, nothing less; so let's not be a little fucking honest for a change shall we?

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Fuck them. I don't give two shit about dellusional retards or their support base. If they're not a family member or friend of yours, it's not like you really give a fuck to begin with. Get over this childish obsession for a sense of belonging, especially when it's some imaginary identity like nationality. This concept of serving "a country" or "your country" is pretty fucking retarded to begin with. It doesn't really mean anything to begin with. Define country, then perhaps the phrase might entail some sort of comprehensible meaning, chances are, it'll still be quite juvenile and retarded. I have no sympathy (well, it's not a hard and fast rule) for people idiotic and degenerate enough to be state sponsored murderers. And if you died "serving your country," well you fucking deserve it you muderous peice of shit. If you're going to kill somebody, you'd better have a pretty good fucking reason to do it, and "serving you country" certainly isn't one of them. One less moronic degenerate peice of shit in the world isn't going to break my heart.

So, the Allies in the world war II were just murderous barbarians right?

A country is a result of human group evolution from the hunter-gather communal living through kingdoms, empires, serfdoms, city-states, and now today, nation-states. Your clan is now your country. You fight for your clan when it is threatened. You fight for your country when it is threatened.

I agree those canadian protesters are pretty idiotic, but I find your notion that all soldiers who've ever fought or died in battle are state-sponsored murderers on par with their idiocy.. So what if you're drafted and go off to war. Are you still a murderous barbarian?

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z

All very good in theory....

Where exactly did you learn to write/read/add and so on where you home schooled? Or were you provided education by your country?

I understand the concept your explaining "that nationality is in fact only perceived" but by living in a country and deriving benefits from it you should be grateful to the ones who made it possible for you to receive them.

And without protection you would get them. Go and ask one of the millions of people who would want to be in your shoes if they think nationality/citizenship is only perceived.

Yes it is only a club, but you should appreciate those who give the most, and there isn't much more than your life than you can give.

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

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Originally posted by Krypton So, the Allies in the world war II were just murderous barbarians right? A country is a result of human group evolution from the hunter-gather communal living through kingdoms, empires, serfdoms, city-states, and now today, nation-states. Your clan is now your country. You fight for your clan when it is threatened. You fight for your country when it is threatened. I agree those canadian protesters are pretty idiotic, but I find your notion that all soldiers who've ever fought or died in battle are state-sponsored murderers on par with their idiocy.. So what if you're drafted and go off to war. Are you still a murderous barbarian?

If you actually have a LEGITIMATE cause, that's a different story altogether. If you're drafted, you didn't choose to participate in such a fiasco. So those are very different circumstances. If economic conditions literally forced you in to the military, that's a little different too. It tells you how fucked up the society and system you live in is. Like I said, it's not a hard and fast rule. I have no problem with people fighting for a justifiable cause, but how many wars have any justification whatsoever? That's the whole premise of my statement, ignorance is no excuse. You signed on to be a soldier, don't bitch about dying in a war. You fucking signed on for that possibility. If you genuinly thought you were serving some higher purpose, then you have somewhat of an excuse. But being to lazy to educate yourself, being dishonest and disingenous, having a desire to belong and identify with a larger group, and other such ludicrous reasons are nothing more than excuses for being a degenrate irresponsible fuck, period.

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish All very good in theory.... Where exactly did you learn to write/read/add and so on where you home schooled? Or were you provided education by your country? I understand the concept your explaining "that nationality is in fact only perceived" but by living in a country and deriving benefits from it you should be grateful to the ones who made it possible for you to receive them. And without protection you would get them. Go and ask one of the millions of people who would want to be in your shoes if they think nationality/citizenship is only perceived. Yes it is only a club, but you should appreciate those who give the most, and there isn't much more than your life than you can give.

The state only gives the masses enough to pacify and keep them undre control, hardly something to be thankful about. If the state doesn't serve true interests of the people, I see no reason to be thankful. And I can't think of a single state that does. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate being in a much better position than most people in the world, at the same time, it shouldn't make us apathetic and selfcentered eigther. Catch my drift?

EDIT: Sorry for coming off so strong Dervish, but it really pisses me off when people go on and on about "supporting the troops" or actally giving a shit about them. If you care so much, why not keep them safe at home rather than sending them to die for stupid/greedy/degenrate politicians/CEOs/chikenhawks/corporate schills/war time profiteers to begin with?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Nov-12-2007 at 23:33

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I have no problem with people fighting for a justifiable cause, but how many wars have any justification whatsoever?

You have to disassociate the men and women that serve and die in war from the political side of things. Given that rememberance day represents many many wars that were fought with conscription, I don’t see why paying respect for average citizens that were (rightly or wrongly) sent to their death should be a problem. And rememberance day certainly isn't the forum for raising valid criticisms against war. Do you celebrate independence day?

I don’t see how one particular day (which actually marks the END of a war) to remember the fallen should be used by vagrant hippies with an axe to grind. Vagrant hippies who haven’t sacrificed anything more than their bars of soap to be there. I really wonder what these morons of history think canada would be like today if they were speaking german or japanese.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN You have to disassociate the men and women that serve and die in war from the political side of things.

Only if you had a choice to not participate, or lacked the mental faculties to comprehend your decision. That clearly isn't the case for most people. So again, fuck them. Not participating or supporting this shit is the bare minimum any self respecting individual can do, it takes a greater conscience and sense of ethics to have the balls to be opposed to it, atleast in spirit, and more so to actually do something about it, but the latter takes collective will and integrity.

Pardon me if I'm tired of all this disingenous bullshit most people so willingly imbibe to feel better about themselves or their "clan" to compensate for the guilt stemming from their actions or inactions they subcontiously know very well. It takes a conciouse decision to push that back and keep it in your subconscious and a whole lot of bullshit.

The whole "support the troops" crap is a good portion of it, not to mention the olderst wartime PR strategy to make people docile and complacent, to minize dissent and the capacity for critical thought.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Given that rememberance day represents many many wars that were fought with conscription, I don’t see why paying respect for average citizens that were (rightly or wrongly) sent to their death should be a problem. And rememberance day certainly isn't the forum for raising valid criticisms against war. Do you celebrate independence day?

I enjoy the fireworks, that's about it. I don't attach any false meaning to the day. People are kind of responsible for the consequences of their actions or inactions, just because someone happens to be stupid enought to be a sacrificial lamb in the process, or praise one, isn't terribly convicing way to earn my respec, sorry.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I don’t see how one particular day (which actually marks the END of a war) to remember the fallen should be used by vagrant hippies with an axe to grind. Vagrant hippies who haven’t sacrificed anything more than their bars of soap to be there. I really wonder what these morons of history think canada would be like today if they were speaking german or japanese.

You forgot to mention razor blades . The vagrant hippies have a lot more spine than the silent masses or the chickenhawks who put on the fascade of mourning for the "fallen." And no, I'm not a fucking hippie.

[EDIT] Please explain how you can absolve people on a collective and individual level of responsibility for their own actions/choices and inactions?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Nov-13-2007 at 00:53

I don't think most soldiers make decisions to join up based on politics.

There are various reasons to join up, but if a soldier is ordered on a mission, they follow their orders. If it's to attack, people will get killed. That's war. I kind of don't get what you're trying to say. Are you saying that veteran's day means nothing because people who die in battle should have expected battle to not be fun?

Or people like Cindy Sheehan should shut up about their loved ones dying in battle because they should have expected that being in a combat zone would be dangerous and shit happens? so let's not honor stupid people for putting themselves in a combat zone?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN You have to disassociate the men and women that serve and die in war from the political side of things. Given that rememberance day represents many many wars that were fought with conscription, I don’t see why paying respect for average citizens that were (rightly or wrongly) sent to their death should be a problem. And rememberance day certainly isn't the forum for raising valid criticisms against war. Do you celebrate independence day? I don’t see how one particular day (which actually marks the END of a war) to remember the fallen should be used by vagrant hippies with an axe to grind. Vagrant hippies who haven’t sacrificed anything more than their bars of soap to be there. I really wonder what these morons of history think canada would be like today if they were speaking german or japanese.

Very valid points indeed. I have great respect to all veterans of war. it is morally incorrect to abuse these veterans like those hippies did. Hippies are sometimes dumb, and they ruin the cause of the whole movement in examples like these (no offense to the good hippies on this board) ... In a way this reminds of other similar acts of disrespect for veterans in other countries. No matter how bad the Vietnam War was, for example, the veterans should still be treated with respect and given privileges. Arguments against the war and killings of innocent civilians is a different story, to be blamed on the people who started the wars and on the officials who ordered the crimes - not on veterans.

And it should be done separately, on an anniversary date of START OF THE WAR, not in the case of Remembrance Day the day the war ended. Clearly the idiots who didnt clue in on this (teh hippies) did it intentionally to take it out on the veterans. November 11 is remembered for the END of the war, as pkc pointed out, thats finally it was over and peace came - celebration of peace. It wasnt us who started that war anyway. And if we didnt interfere, Canadians would probably be speaking Japanese or German, as pkc pointed out. Also, compared to other wars of the century, very few civilians and women/children died in WW1. There's too much disrespect, lack of knowledge and understanding out there of history. I blame it on the schools and the system. The new generation of young people, for much part, are very dumb. I just came out of high school, I saw it myself.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture