This deserves to be a Sticky for sure. Bump!!!

Nem

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quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 This deserves to be a Sticky for sure. Bump!!! Nem

Agreed,

Had a read Stu, some good reading there. I've never gotten into the harmonic mixing but nice to know what all the hype is about.

although i do think djs would benifit by understanding the relationship of the keys regarding their songs and by doing so being able to manipulate this for greater impact on the dance floor , the system presented is a little simplistic and arbitrary. IT also doesn't differentiate between mixing harmonically related material and shifting to a new key.

I also dislike the system in that it provides a cheat ( a lousy one) that disuades djs from actually learning about harmonic modulation so that they actually understand how a shift is related.

I suppose it is something that most djs won't learn because most producers don't even know about keys so i guess the system is better than nothing but i thought i would just share my opinion on the whole thing.

I would still at least check it out and see for yourself.

A "cheat"?

Why are there still people that believe that everything in DJing is supposed to be a super hard feat or otherwise it's not accepted? It's 2009 ffs.

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a cheat implies you don't actually know how to do it and since djs interested in harmonic mixing seem to be interested in being better djs, they would be interested in actually learning the principles behind it so they can do it properly. I personally think djs that harmonically mix are wasting their time but if they want to learn, they should actually learn to do it well. The comment was made more as a passive sigh to how people supposedly so passionate about music are so apathetic to understanding it.

not sure why you are laughing out loud. I guess i'm a little funnier than i thought

Last edited by RichieV on Apr-20-2009 at 22:54

Harmonic mixing is a useful tool, but like anything you have to do it properly.
Like many people have said here before it allows you to mix melodies of tracks and have them work well, but if you just have a beat ur fair game to do what you want. The method only covers the key though; so to use it properly I feel that you still have to know your music. ie the tone and mood aswell so you can change the mood and take the room where you want it that way, if the keys go well together and the moods and tones of the song work well then you will get a sweet mix that will flow without anyone really noticing.
If you rely solely on keys you can have one song that has a mellow sombre mood to it and you mix it into a happy upbeat track of the same key, sure harmonically it will go, but the feel of the music will be way off and you will leave ppl pretty much saying, wtf just happened

Sure it may not be for everyone but harmonic mixing allows you to put more thought into the way you play and select your music imo.

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Oh FFS .. do we have to go through this again?

Jay

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV although i do think djs would benifit by understanding the relationship of the keys regarding their songs and by doing so being able to manipulate this for greater impact on the dance floor , the system presented is a little simplistic and arbitrary. IT also doesn't differentiate between mixing harmonically related material and shifting to a new key. I also dislike the system in that it provides a cheat ( a lousy one) that disuades djs from actually learning about harmonic modulation so that they actually understand how a shift is related. I suppose it is something that most djs won't learn because most producers don't even know about keys so i guess the system is better than nothing but i thought i would just share my opinion on the whole thing. I would still at least check it out and see for yourself.

My article was purely about mixing harmonically related material - 1st part discusses mixing the same keys and the 2nd part discusses mixing related keys (e.g. Cm -> Fm). I did say in the 2nd part that other shifts to create certain effects are worth looking into as a bit of extra reading, but not something I was covering in that article.

I'm not really sure what you mean by saying it's a cheat... I mean yeah someone could easily just grab the chart and use that rather than knowing that the relationships that generally match are 4ths, 5ths etc, but that's why I've explained that in the article, so that people DO absorb a bit of the background behind it.

I do agree that DJs should take more of an interest in the musical aspects of music though! And they should also take more of an interest in the technical side (seeing that DJing bridges music and technology) - the number of DJs who can't even plug a pair of decks in without help is astounding.

quote:

Originally posted by woscar A "cheat"? Why are there still people that believe that everything in DJing is supposed to be a super hard feat or otherwise it's not accepted? It's 2009 ffs.

+100000000

Not so much in relation to that post (as I'm not quite sure what he meant), but as a bit of a side note I generally agree that it's a bit fucking stone age that so many people reject software that beatmatches for them etc... if the technology around now had existed in the 70s, you'd get laughed at for trying to beatmatch manually. Admittedly you'd probably also get a bit of respect, like if you've ever seen someone looping a track with an elastic band around the tone arm, but that's out of novelty appeal as much as anything else - it's not as if it's expected that everyone should do looping like that.

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quote:

Originally posted by RichieV although i do think djs would benifit by understanding the relationship of the keys regarding their songs and by doing so being able to manipulate this for greater impact on the dance floor , the system presented is a little simplistic and arbitrary. IT also doesn't differentiate between mixing harmonically related material and shifting to a new key. I also dislike the system in that it provides a cheat ( a lousy one) that disuades djs from actually learning about harmonic modulation so that they actually understand how a shift is related. I suppose it is something that most djs won't learn because most producers don't even know about keys so i guess the system is better than nothing but i thought i would just share my opinion on the whole thing. I would still at least check it out and see for yourself.

I think that is a bit of a sweeping generalisation if I'm to be honest and whilst I do see the point you are making I do not totally agree with it.

What Stu is doing is simply presenting it in a way that someone who is asking the question "what is HM?", may be able to discover the fundamentals. What they then choose to do with it is up to them.

We must not forget that every single genre of dance music out there today was pioneered by people who had little or no musical training and didn't know the rules or principles to making music, and as a result did what sounded good and felt right at the time. The so called rule book of the time had to be re-written and studio techniques where butchered and abused in ways that traditional producers would not have concieved of.

You don't have to know the ins and outs fully to make this work for you and sometimes you could even consider not knowing an advantage. Take some of the greatest names in music history and you will find people who have little or no classical training, i.e. Hendrix, Lennon and McCartney, Elvis and Dylan to name but a few.

You are going to have a large amount of bedroom DJs out there who will take this and use it for a while as it is written, mix records back to back and will get enjoyment out of it because they sound better than they did before. Nothing wrong in that, each to their own. The DJ who takes this, absorbs it and then puts his own spin on it is infinately more interesting anyway and will probably do this to every aspect of their mixing and stand a better chance of succeeding, but it all depends on what you want out of it.

Besides the Camelot method is just an easier way of remembering the 4ths and 5ths of a particular key. I don't really see what the difference would be if someone just memorised all the different relationships that each note has to the respective key, sure it might take a bit longer to remember it all but at the end of the day, it wouldn't change how the tracks are mixed or what is actually available to mix if a DJ wants to mix into the same or workable key. Whether the DJ mixes a Gm into a Cm or a 6a into a 5a would have absolutely no impact on what the actual mix sounds like.

You will actually find that DJs who are serious about their HM actually know both the number and note on the chromatic scale and can work with either system. A lot of DJs do key their own tracks rather than let software do it for them.

I personally just see it as a tool or technique that I frequently use, that doesn't mean I have to, I just like doing it and I know how to use it to get a desired reaction from the dancefloor. This does not take away the need for other core skills like beatmatching if you are like me and still like to do it the good ol' way, track selection and reading the crowd.

The nice thing I find about HM is that it creates a nice flow to the set and everything seems to have a place, a track selection can be quite random but wouldn't appear to be to the listner.

It just works with what I do,that said each to their own.

Nem

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quote:

Originally posted by RichieV a cheat implies you don't actually know how to do it and since djs interested in harmonic mixing seem to be interested in being better djs, they would be interested in actually learning the principles behind it so they can do it properly. I personally think djs that harmonically mix are wasting their time but if they want to learn, they should actually learn to do it well. The comment was made more as a passive sigh to how people supposedly so passionate about music are so apathetic to understanding it.

could you explain to me how knowing the "principles behind it" would make the slightest difference to harmonic mixing? also, why is obeying the laws of music a "waste of time"?

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