quote:

Originally posted by ******** http://www.thestar.com/business/aut...insurance-hikes Just read this article in the sun - looks like a 14% hike in auto insurance rates in the GTA is in store.

it's about time....insurance companies are loosing too much money on their automobile business. A 14% hike seems fair....I was expecting something closer to 30%

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Scott has been introduced to the rave scene, and Ecstasy, by Craig. The two of them go out on the weekends, with some of Craigs friends, and stay up all night, dancing in a drug-fueled trance.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

^ agreed.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

Apparently many people will see as much as a 30% hike. they're saying 14 is the average

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Ian~

Why GTA car insurance rates can give you whiplash
Industry insiders claim too many medical clinics and legal professionals are 'gaming' the system
James Daw
Business Columnist

Oct 03, 2009


Two Ontario drivers reported aches and pains after their big Ford Econoline vans were struck from behind as they sat at stoplights, weeks and kilometres apart.

The incidents were very similar. Both resulted in minor damage to the rear of the van; they involved the same kind of vehicle, same mandatory plan of auto insurance, and drivers one year apart in age.

But the cost of assessing, treating and compensating the drivers was a world apart. One of the collisions took place in London, Ont., and the driver's claim cost his insurer $1,674. The second incident took place in Toronto and has cost a whopping $51,808 to date.

A major insurer supplied the Toronto Star with 10 sample case histories of comparable collisions, without revealing names, to illustrate the enormous differences in costs between the Toronto area and the rest of the province – differences that will result in major premium increases for GTA drivers if something is not done soon.

There could be many reasons for the huge difference in the cost of assessing and treating minor sprains, strains and whiplash injuries between the GTA and the rest of Ontario. There's isn't enough data to provide a detailed breakdown of costs and types of injuries.

But experts polled by the Star point to two factors: A high concentration of medical and legal service providers in Greater Toronto, and an inadequate system of controls and incentives.

Some industry insiders and observers also say certain clinics, lawyers and paralegals have learned to "game" Ontario's complicated system of checks and balances, to maximize insurance payouts – ultimately driving up the cost of insurance for local drivers.

"The abusers take advantage of the extremely tight timelines that adjusters have to respond to requests (for treatment and assessments) by bogging us down in as much paper as possible," says Nora Hohman, a claims executive with Dominion of Canada General Insurance Co.

"We can end up paying for things we never should have, or would have, covered."

The result, say insurers, is spiralling costs for relatively minor injuries in the GTA – costs they will have to pass on to all drivers.

In fact, they say, Toronto drivers face increases in auto insurance premiums of about $400 per vehicle in coming months, on top of the average $1,680 they paid last year. Outside Toronto, the average premium was $524 less last year.

Government officials are also aware that Ontario's injury benefits system has spawned excesses. "Entirely new industries have been created to support the accident benefits system," officials at the Financial Services Commission of Ontario said in a review of auto insurance this year.

Sources say provincial cabinet ministers are about to debate changes aimed at controlling the rise in costs and avoiding a consumer backlash before the next provincial election.



INSURERS SAY there is less abuse in the rest of the province. The 58-year-old man in the London collision returned to work in a few days.

He later saw a chiropractor who proposed – and was paid – $1,674 for treatment.

Insurers could hardly quibble with that. It was within an approved and scientifically justified framework of early treatments for whiplash-associated disorders.

The case of the 59-year-old Toronto woman involved in the Econoline collision contrasts sharply with that of the London man.

She initially reporting a pain in the side, but later claimed to have blurred vision, back strain, headaches, nausea, rash, skin eruptions and severe stress adjustment.

Like many others in the Toronto area, including five of the case studies supplied to the Star, the woman consulted a legal adviser after her van was struck. She quit work for several weeks, not a recommended strategy for a rapid recovery.

She received $4,096 of income replacement, and sought $9,600 to pay for housekeeping and for help dressing, washing her hair and cutting her toenails. The chiropractor she saw proposed to spend nearly 117 hours and bill $22,158 to assess her injuries, home and workplace. Along with a psychologist, the chiropractor proposed $26,000 worth of treatments and assistive devices.

The insurer did approve $10,164 for assessments, but another $3,454 slipped from its grasp because employees failed to object within a three-day time limit.

To support its objections to the rest of the proposed spending, it paid more than $17,000 for independent assessments.

In the end, more was spent on assessments than treatment.



STATISTICS ON INSURANCE claims in Toronto, Peel and southern York Region indicate roadway injuries are not increasing as rapidly as the number of vehicles on the road.

That should provide consumers some relief. Indeed, the portion of premiums collected last year to pay for accident benefits – an average of $565 per vehicle – was down more than $100 from 2004.

But the estimated cost of paying those benefits has risen at a crazy pace, outstripping the benefits.

Costs hit $710 per vehicle in the GTA last year, up 72 per cent in just four years.

At that rate, insurers could justify seeking a premium of nearly $950. That is much higher than the $346 collected last year for accident benefits in London, or $230 in Ottawa.

The Insurance Bureau of Canada compiled a comparison of some 800 cases of sprain and strain injury cases reported to 10 insurers starting Aug. 1, 2006.

The data show GTA claimants hired lawyers more often.

More saw three or more medical practitioners. More claimed disability income and cash to pay for help around the home. All this led to more disputes and multiple medical assessments by insurers.

During just the first six months after the injuries, costs were 55 per cent higher in Toronto. Yet the claimants did not recover any quicker, and across the province more than 80 per cent of claims went on for more than six months.

Scott Knight is president of the Association of Independent Assessment Centres, whose members perform independent medical assessments for insurers.

He declined to comment on the 10 accident cases provided to the Star without having more information. But he said he does suspect there are "rogue practitioners" in the Toronto area.

He said he knows of lawyers who have clients sign blank claim forms, and health practitioners, such as physiotherapists and chiropractors, sign blank assessment forms.

The lawyers then fill out the forms themselves and submit them in batches, hoping the insurer won't have time to object within the three-day limit set out in regulations.



MANY LOCAL FACTORS could be blamed for higher expenses in the Toronto area: We drive smaller cars on average, and are therefore more likely to be injured in a collision. Our roads are more congested. More drivers are new to our roads.

Collisions last year were 57 per cent more common here than in the rest of Ontario, and injury claims 110 per cent more common.

Toronto scientist David Cassidy, a researcher on recovery from whiplash, suspects it's not likely that injuries in Toronto are more severe than in the rest of Ontario.

It's more likely, says Cassidy, that the number of lawyers and therapists in Toronto contribute to pushing up the cost of dealing with uncomplicated sprains and strains – which are estimated to account for as much as 80 per cent of total accident benefit claims.

"It's not just in whiplash, it's in everything," said Cassidy. "If there is a higher density of practitioners, there is going to be more activity. We know that about surgery. We know that about all sorts of different things.

"Sometimes it's good. Sometimes urban people have the benefit of having better access to care that is needed. Sometimes it is driven financially, and we know the rehabilitation sector is funded outside of Medicare, and they are businesses.

"We know when lawyers get involved, they want lots of assessments because there you have a dispute. Lawyers are driving costs up in a way because they want to make the case that their client is suffering and they are going to get lots of opinions, and the insurer is going to do the opposite ..."

Cassidy concluded in a study of Saskatchewan's insurance system published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 2000, and in subsequent published studies, that whiplash cases would go down, and be resolved many weeks sooner, if no lawyers were involved.

Injured people would recover faster with minimal treatment by a physiotherapist or chiropractor, a return to normal activity (despite pain) within a day or two and with no disputes to expose them to conflicting medical opinions, he found.

Cassidy is concerned that too much care early may undo the benefit of reassuring clients and urging them to resume their daily activity. Another of his studies found passive coping strategies, such as withdrawing from activities due to pain and relying on pain killers, can slow a person's recovery.



"WE HAVE CREATED an industry that all it does is assess folks," complains Rocco Neglia, vice-president of claims for the Economical Insurance Group in Waterloo.

"As a business model, if all you are doing is assessing, then you want to assess as much as you possibly can."

His company hired outside investigators to examine the business practices of six Toronto assessment centres and five treatment facilities. Two were also cited by another insurer as a high-volume source of treatment and assessment proposals, along with many others.

"With the exception of (one treatment centre), these establishments generally do not appear to have the requisite equipment or facilities to effect the type of care that they claim to provide," the investigator concluded.

"Very few actual patients were seen at these clinics during our attendance, which brings into question what and how much treatment is actually being completed versus what is being invoiced."

In the assessment centres, the investigator noted "an inordinate amount of administrative/support staff in proportion to the volume of business purported."

Says Neglia: "I don't think these folks could assess anything. They are geared to spew out paper."

Joe Daly, Ontario spokesman for the Desjardins General Insurance Group, says, "It is our view that Ontario accident benefit claimants in general, and Toronto-area claimants in particular, are being over-assessed and overtreated.

"We believe that the parties benefiting from this are not the claimants. Rather (it's) the assessors and the lawyers, who we suspect have a referral arrangement with the assessors."

Government officials have signalled they think a potential counterattack to this phenomenon would be to give consumers the choice to buy less coverage for accident benefits.

Most insurers polled by the Star favour a proposal from the Financial Services Commission of Ontario to offer benefit coverage with a limit of $25,000 for all but catastrophic injuries.

But medical practitioners warn consumers could come to regret that option if they suffer a more severe injury than a sprain or a strain.

Sources say Finance Minister Dwight Duncan has been briefed on new proposals for changing auto insurance. They expect those proposals to go before cabinet in a couple of weeks.

In the meantime, insurers are continuing to seek approval for premium increases.

And motorists required to pay the bills for injury benefits are likely to feel a persistent pain in the neck.

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quote:

Scott has been introduced to the rave scene, and Ecstasy, by Craig. The two of them go out on the weekends, with some of Craigs friends, and stay up all night, dancing in a drug-fueled trance.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

Insurers drive up rates for motorists
Some premiums jump as high as 17 per cent with more hikes forecast
James Daw
Business Columnist

Jul 16, 2009



Get ready to pay more – potentially much more – for auto insurance.

Ontario motorists face the biggest increases in insurance premiums since the province temporarily froze premiums in late 2003.

The latest round of increases approved by regulators has brought the average increase over 12 months to 7.8 per cent, with some insurers raising rates by twice as much.

Policy holders with CAA, Scottish & York, COSECO and TD General insurance companies will see their rates rise 10 per cent or more when policy renewal statements start arriving over the next several months.

Regulators approved earlier increases at COSECO and Scottish & York, which totalled more than 15 per cent, as have increases at Economical and Pilot.

Intact Financial, the former ING Canada, has increased rates about 17 per cent since October of 2007, a spokesman said yesterday.

Don Forgeron, president of the Insurance Bureau of Canada, says the double-digit increases, including some at companies with lower average increases, may signal worse to come.

"Historically we have seen modest rate increases for a period of time and then the pace quickens, and there is no warning of when that will happen," he said.

Premiums are rising in the wake of investment losses and the increased demands on insurers to pay more for medical and rehabilitation services for victims of minor injuries.

Insurers are anxiously awaiting a decision by Ontario Finance Minister Dwight Duncan regarding a package of changes they hope will help control cost increases and avert a consumer backlash.

Changes enacted in 2004 led to a period of modest price reductions, but pressure for price increases has been building for the past two years.

Insurers of autos, homes and businesses generally earned profits last year, but as a group they lost about $390 million on their Ontario auto insurance business.

Economical Mutual Insurance Co. of Waterloo lost $102 million last year. The Financial Services Commission of Ontario has approved its request for three rate increases totalling 19.7 per cent since last summer.

Some large insurers have managed to limit their requests for premium increases to less than 7 per cent in the past year.

These include sales leaders State Farm Mutual, Co-operators General (sister company of COSECO) and Security National, whose insurance is marketed to university graduates by TD Meloche Monnex.

Rick McCombie, a senior vice-president at Co-operators in Guelph, said the COSECO division needed larger increases because more of its clients are in the Greater Toronto Area, where losses have been higher.

"But there is another (smaller) increase coming at (Co-operators)," he said.

"I think everybody is feeling the same pain and we are trying to have our rates to reflect the current loss activity."

Andrew Wicken of InsuranceHotline.com says brokers are still willing to deal with consumers who use the company's online service to shop for cheaper rates.

But there are signs insurers are taking steps to drive customers away, or avoid attracting additional customers in Ontario.

President's Choice Financial, the Loblaw Cos. Ltd. subsidiary, has stopped selling home and auto insurance.

Neither Aviva Canada, which underwrites existing policies, nor President's Choice responded yesterday to a series of questions posed by the Toronto Star.

Randy Carroll, chief executive of the Insurance Brokers Association of Ontario, said brokers have faced obstacles getting the cheapest rates available from Aviva, which operates under the names Aviva, Pilot and Elite. And customers of various insurers have had home insurance policies cancelled or their premiums increased, which can have an impact on their auto insurance rates.

Unless they move both home and auto policies to another insurer, they lose a multi-policy discount.

Carroll said he suspects some insurers are dumping home insurance policyholders because of poor credit ratings. Regulators have warned insurers not to use credit scores when pricing auto insurance, but by hiking home insurance rates insurers can drive away unwanted auto business. The province does not regulate prices or underwriting practices for home insurance.

These attempts to cut losses have prompted other insurers to respond. Lombard Canada has told brokers it will impose a 25 per cent surcharge on clients moving their home insurance coverage from insurers such as Economical and Pilot.

It will also stop offering loyalty discounts and first-accident forgiveness to new auto insurance customers.

Bulletins to brokers indicate Pembridge Insurance and AXA Canada have also taken steps to avoid customers driven away by other insurers.

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quote:

Scott has been introduced to the rave scene, and Ecstasy, by Craig. The two of them go out on the weekends, with some of Craigs friends, and stay up all night, dancing in a drug-fueled trance.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

If you really want to know why you pay so much for insurance in the GTA this explains it best. The one thing I will say is that alot of the assessments the insurance company has to do are because of benefits being claimed by the injured people.

Toronto auto insurance claims: average cost $34,858
James Daw
Business Columnist

Oct 03, 2009


1. A 42-year-old Toronto woman was struck in the rear of her 1994 Volkswagen Golf in June 2008. Emergency room doctors diagnosed sprains or strains to her neck and back.

Treatments and assorted cash payments cost $8,951. Some $19,549 was spent on assessments proposed by her practitioners and others ordered by the insurer.

A chiropractor, psychologist and orthopaedic specialist proposed to spend 148 hours at a cost of $21,575 to do 14 home, worksite, capability and other assessments over seven months. The insurer agreed to pay $5,912, and paid $1,116 when staff failed to dispute the need within a three-day deadline set in regulations.

A chiropractor, massage therapist and psychologist proposed to charge $12,660 for treatments and assistive devices. The insurer paid $2,833, plus $2,394 for attendant care, $2,800 for housekeeping, and $924 for income benefits. Medical exams required to rebut assessment, treatment and benefits claims cost $12,521.

Total: $28,500

2. A 45-year-old man was injured last November when he turned onto a Toronto street and his 2004 Honda Pilot was struck on the side. He went to a collision reporting centre, to his doctor several days later and then to a chiropractor with a sore shoulder, neck and back.

Treatments and assistive devices cost $6,275, housekeeping help $800. Assessments by the man’s practitioners and those ordered by the insurer cost $16,424.

The insurer received proposals for 10 assessments by a chiropractor, occupational therapist, psychologist and orthopaedic and neurological specialists at a cost of $14,555. The insurer agreed to pay $3,586, and was deemed to have agreed (because of missing the three-day deadline dispute) for $1,116. The insurer paid another $11,408 for its own assessments.

Total cost: $23,499

3. A 45-year-old man reported a headache, sore lower back, neck and shoulder after his 2008 Nissan Versa hatchback was struck in the rear at a Toronto intersection in July 2008.

The insurer paid for $4,590 for treatments and assistive devices and $2,250 for housekeeping. Assessments cost $19,361.

The insurer received proposals for 93 hours of assessments at a cost $15,500 from a chiropractor, psychologist, orthopaedic specialist and pain management specialist. It agreed to pay for $3,794, while spending $15,566 for its own assessments.

Practitioners proposed $14,820 for chiropractic, physiotherapy, massage, aqua massage, acupuncture and psychological treatments. The insurer paid for $4,590.

Total cost: $26,201

4. A woman, age 59, reported pain on the left side of her body after her husband’s Ford Econoline van was struck in the rear at a major Toronto intersection in April 2008.

Eleven days later she complained of an eye injury, blurred vision, injuries to her neck, spine, pelvis, thigh, shoulder and elbow, plus headaches, nausea, rash and skin eruptions, severe stress and an adjustment disorder.

Treatment and assistive devices $15,912, housekeeping $850. The insurer paid $30,950 for assessments.

A chiropractor, psychologist, physiatrist, orthopaedic and neurological specialists proposed to spend 117 hours doing assessments at a cost of $22,158. The insurer agreed to pay $10,164, and paid an additional $3,454 when staff failed to dispute the proposals with three days. It paid $17,332 for independent assessments.

Therapists proposed to bill $25,859 for chiropractic, physiotherapy, acupuncture, massage and psychological treatments, and assistive devices such as a back rest. The insurer paid $15,912.

Total: $51,808

5. A 53-year-old man reported pain in his right neck and shoulder after a collision in Toronto in May 2008.

The insurer paid $17,579 for treatments, personal care in home, housekeeping and income replacement. The insurer also paid $26,740 for assessments.

Practitioners proposed spending 122 hours at a cost of $18,408 to assess the man’s ability to cope at work, at home and while driving, the latter session requiring three hours of translation service. The insurer paid for $4,722 of the proposed assessments, plus $22,018 for its own.

The insurer paid $9,688 of the $14,996 worth of treatment and assistive devices proposed, including chiropractic, massage and physiotherapy sessions, psychological treatments and a long-handled dust pan.

Total: $44,283


Non-GTA claims: average cost $11,067


1. A 53-year-old man reported mouth and whiplash injuries when his 2001 Mazda MPV van was struck and pushed into another vehicle as he waited to cross at an intersection south of Ottawa. Of the five cases outside Toronto, he was the only person to retain a legal adviser. All five in the Toronto area did.

A physiotherapist seen within two weeks of the July, 2008, collision proposed three treatment plans over the following year. In July a psychologist proposed to spend 7.6 hours at a cost of $986 to do an assessment.

The major expense was for $23,200 of income replacement, of which the insurer paid $14,551. He also claimed $4,632 for housekeeping, and the insurer paid $2,984. The insurer paid $12,550 for assessments related to the claim for income replacement.

Total: $34,629

2. A 38-year-old woman reported neck, back, hip and arm pain after her 2002 Ford Focus station wagon collided at about 60 km/h with a vehicle near Windsor.

She missed 10 days of work in June 2008 but was only eligible to claim $320 for three days.

A physiotherapist proposed to charge $287 for 3.2 hours to do an in-home assessment. The physiotherapist, a chiropractor and massage therapist billed $6,332 for treatments over seven months. The insurer paid $4,918 for treatments, $287 for the one assessment and ordered none of its own.

Total: $5,205

3. A 58-year-old man saw his doctor the day after his 2005 Econoline van was rear-ended as he waited at a red light in London, Ont., last December.

He was referred to a chiropractor to treat his neck and back pain, and related headaches and returned to work within a couple of days, as is highly recommended with such whiplash associated disorders. The chiropractor billed $1,472 for treatments in February and a further $640 in late July.

The insurer had paid only for the first set of treatments by the time it prepared a report for the Star. It had also paid $202 for one of its own assessments.

Total: $1,674

4. A 43-year-old man was taken by ambulance to hospital after he struck a deer, lost control of his Dodge Dakota pickup truck and ran into a bridge in south-western Ontario in September 2008. His airbag deployed, causing superficial injuries to his face, shoulders and upper neck.

The insurer paid $803 for an assessment and $2,700 to replace and repair the man’s dentures, plus $900 of the $2,424 billed for chiropractic and massage treatment this past July, 10 months after his accident. The insurer paid $800 for assessments it requested.

Total: $4,403

5. A 36-year-old woman reported whiplash injuries and headaches after her 2004 Buick Rendezvous was damaged near Ottawa last January.

The insurer paid $6,818 to date for income replacement and $2,609 for housekeeping.

A first proposal for treatments came from a physiotherapist in April. A second plan was submitted in July for total cost of $4,329. The insurer has paid $372 so far.

Total: $9,427

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quote:

Scott has been introduced to the rave scene, and Ecstasy, by Craig. The two of them go out on the weekends, with some of Craigs friends, and stay up all night, dancing in a drug-fueled trance.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

Last edited by ChemEnhanced on Oct-20-2009 at 18:33

So lets put a bandaid on the problem (increased rates) instead of fixing the root cause (companies taking advantage of the system to increase their books)


Jayx1 view: let the system work itself out, no intervention required

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Do I exist?

id like to see ontario follow the model from Quebec

Gosh do I miss my $400/year insurance!

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Do I exist?

quote:

Originally posted by devnull So lets put a bandaid on the problem (increased rates) instead of fixing the root cause (companies taking advantage of the system to increase their books) Jayx1 view: let the system work itself out, no intervention required

You can go ahead and mock Jay's views on the subject (although we're presuming his views as I don't believe he's voiced them); however, rates were much much cheaper prior to Accident Benefits... of course the trade off was that disabled people were going without income or treatment until 4-5 years after the accident when their tort claim settled.

What we really need is a system that controls costs and is fair to both sides... I would suggest that we impose a Quebec style "meat chart" where if you are injured you get a set amount for the diagnosed injury and you can do whatever you want with it. In order to prevent multiple assessments there should be only one assessment allowed, which would be done by a provicially appointed and regulated assessment centre, no appeal process.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

quote:

Originally posted by devnull So lets put a bandaid on the problem (increased rates) instead of fixing the root cause (companies taking advantage of the system to increase their books) Jayx1 view: let the system work itself out, no intervention required

If you want to fix the problem you have to hold the assessment facilities and the doctors who recommend treatment accountable for what they submit to the insurance company. I have a chiropractor wanting to do a Traumatic Brain Injury Assessment and a Cardiology Assessment for a soft tissue injury claim. the cost of the two assessments totals just over $6,000.00. How in the hell is a chiropractor able to do either of these assessments....yet there is nothing stopping them from submitting these types of useless assessments.

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quote:

Scott has been introduced to the rave scene, and Ecstasy, by Craig. The two of them go out on the weekends, with some of Craigs friends, and stay up all night, dancing in a drug-fueled trance.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

I just did some checking... the combined ratio (claims payments + expenses : premium collected) for the Ontario automobile insurers on accident benefits was 124.4 in 2008. This means that for every dollar in premium all the auto insurers in Ontario collected on accident benefits coverage they paid $1.24 in claims/expenses.

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I just did some checking... the combined ratio (claims payments + expenses : premium collected) for the Ontario automobile insurers on accident benefits was 124.4 in 2008. This means that for every dollar in premium all the auto insurers in Ontario collected on accident benefits coverage they paid $1.24 in claims/expenses.

On one hand I want to see changes to the system but on the other hand it may cost me my job.

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quote:

Scott has been introduced to the rave scene, and Ecstasy, by Craig. The two of them go out on the weekends, with some of Craigs friends, and stay up all night, dancing in a drug-fueled trance.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48