I've been buying a lot of tracks from the 6th Borough Project/The Revenge end of the house spectrum (slow-mo house, disco re-edits, whatever you want to call it). Rapid Evolution is telling me a lot of these tunes are in major keys. Is that the case for this genre or is the software leading me astray?

5b Still Going - Untitled Love (Instrumental)
6b Ilija Rudman - Call Me Tonight (The Revenge 1-800 Mix)
7b Worst Friends - Del Boca Vista (Original Mix)
11b 6th Borough Project - Just A Memory
12b Jaffa Surfs - Disko Z (The Revenge Remix)

[Camelot key codes end in "a" for minor keys and "b" for major keys.]

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After giving it a quick blast on YouTube, it sounds to me like the first one's in F minor, so I'd check them if I were you.

Tbh I only ever use Rapid Evolution as a quick way of getting the tempo (although I normally just let Traktor do that now) - I've never trusted it with working out keys. With tempos if the number RE comes up with sounds about right, it probably is... but with keys you have no way of knowing apart from checking every single one - the algorithms are so complicated and inexact.

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Stu Cox |

For that genre, yes in my experience there tend to be more majors compared to say prog house.

Knowing whether a track is major or minor isn't too difficult normally. Minor tracks sound a bit more mellow and deep, while majors usually sound more cheerful.

The best way to test it is to try mixing it into the same key. So if you think it is a 9B, try mixing it with another 9B. If it is seamless than it is probably a major, and vice versa with the minor equivalent

Most dance tracks up to the early 1980's were in major keys. Since then, most have been in minor keys. For a comparison of key detection software, see
http://www.djtechtools.com/2009/11/...ware-smackdown/

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second track is in A minor.
4rth track is in C# minor

They could of been at different speeds as it was youtube but the key is definitely off.

use a piano and your ears as those stupid softwares don't work. They work by getting the most common root note which doesn't guarantee it is the tonic of the key.

how I do detest the camelot system and monkeys that use it.

Last edited by Looney4Clooney on Jul-29-2010 at 16:53

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad second track is in A minor. 4rth track is in C# minor They could of been at different speeds as it was youtube but the key is definitely off. use a piano and your ears as those stupid softwares don't work. They work by getting the most common root note which doesn't guarantee it is the tonic of the key. how I do detest the camelot system and monkeys that use it.

"Monkeys"? The vast majority of people do not have sufficient music education to "use a piano" to key music. Some tracks are even difficult for professional musicians, with thousands of hours playing music, to key. Those who depend on others for keying are "monkeys"?

No system "works" perfectly, but do you believe the overlay chart is a more efficient method of selecting compatible mixes than the Camelot Wheel (see http://www.djprince.no/table2.htm)? Do YOU have a more efficient method?

Please advise. Thanks!

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the system says nothing regarding the affect of going from one key to another and it is akin to just following a script for which you have no understanding as to why you are doing it. You are just blindly mixing according to some chart that speaks nothing of the general character of certain blends. It is a gimmick. Until you understand key relationships and conceptualized the relationship between them, all you are is a robot who isn't in control of what they are playing.

More efficient manner ? I do but it involves work. Your system doesn't work, it doesn't propel djs to learn anything about music theory and is a tool for hacks. And your system is just a rip off of what others have been doing for hundreds of years except they don't use arbitrary numbers to idiot proof it for a generation of djs that think they are musicians.

someone is trolling here, i dont know who yet

Thanks for your response.

YOU WROTE: ". . . the system says nothing regarding the affect of going from one key to another and it is akin to just following a script for which you have no understanding as to why you are doing it."

RESPONSE: Only partly true. It "says nothing regarding the affect of going from one key to another" OTHER than harmonic compatibility, which is its only function. This is the only reason mixers care about the system: to identify harmonic compatibility. Further, it is NOT akin to following a script. It is more akin to following a map (http://www.camelotsound.com/Overview.aspx), because it charts the harmonic relationship among songs.

A script must be followed. This system, on the other hand, narrows the field of potential tracks to only the 25% or so that are harmonically compatible. It is like GPS for mixing. You may choose to use the system or not. Unlike a script, the choice is yours.

"Understanding why you are doing it" is nice to have, but unnecessary for the function of selecting harmonically compatible mixes. Not all people had the luxury of music education, or the desire to study music theory to the skill level required to competently key tracks on their own. This is especially true since the 1980's in America, when school systems cut so many arts programs to concentrate on core subjects. Do you believe that harmonic mixing should be reserved only for the elite with adequate music education?

"Your system doesn't work" is false, because it meets its designated function (identifying harmonically compatible mixes) perfectly! It is not DESIGNED to "propel DJs to learn anything about music theory" (other than indirectly teaching actual key compatibility), because knowledge of music theory is not required to select harmonically compatible mixes.

(It's unclear, however, whether "your system" refers to harmonic mixing in general (see overlay chart), or the Easymix System that annotates the Circle of Fifths with keycodes. Which is it?)

The "general character of certain blends" may be important to the overall function of mixing, but it is irrelevant in the SUB-function of selecting HARMONICALLY COMPATIBLE mixes, as stated. The ONLY factor in selecting harmonically compatible mixes is harmonic compatibility.

Further, studying music theory is not an EFFICIENT use of time, if the only use of such study is to select harmonically compatible mixes. If they aspire to becoming musicians, that is another issue. Non-musicians do not need to UNDERSTAND key relationships any more than passengers need to understand aircraft engineering. Nice to have, but irrelevant to the simple function of selecting harmonically compatible mixes.

- What "generation of DJs thinks they're musicians"? As far as I can tell, the only DJ's who think they are musicians are DJ's who actually ARE musicians. This is a fraction of the whole.

- How is the Camelot Wheel a "ripoff"? Who is being "ripped-off"? It is an interpretation of a public domain concept (i.e., the Circle of Fifths)?


FYI: "Efficient" means "performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort." A "more efficient" method of performing this function (selecting harmonically compatible mixes) must be a method of selecting harmonically compatible mixes with the least waste of time and effort.

- Do you believe the overlay chart is a more efficient method of selecting harmonically compatible mixes than the Camelot Wheel?

- What is YOUR "more efficient" method of selecting harmonically compatible mixes? This more efficient method must be able select harmonically compatible mixes with LESS time and effort. Please advise. The whole world's waiting!


"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei (1564 - 1642)

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Last edited by Camelot_Sound on Jul-30-2010 at 01:58

your system doesn't account for chord changes, non chord tones, cross relations , suspensions , key modulations. Basically anything that doesn't involve a root bass note and sound effects. Two songs in the same key do not make them harmonically compatible in the manner you think ( I say this because all keys are compatible with all other keys in that it is only a spectrum of dissonance rather than right or wrong) just because of the key. Of course i'm pretty sure your knowledge of music theory impedes your understanding as to why this is the case. You also assume that dissonance is an absolute rather than a spectrum.

any system that doesn't explain why and acts as a script, and no it isn't a map because you do not define the relation in concrete terms, in my opinion is rubbish. The goal should not be to have 2 songs that might have some harmonic congruences but rather the overall ebb and flow of a set.

And your approach to music is rather disgusting. You don't think djs should have some knowledge of music theory ? You seem to even discourage it. Great attitude.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad your system doesn't account for chord changes, non chord tones, cross relations , suspensions , key modulations. Basically anything that doesn't involve a root bass note and sound effects. Two songs in the same key do not make them harmonically compatible in the manner you think ( I say this because all keys are compatible with all other keys in that it is only a spectrum of dissonance rather than right or wrong) just because of the key. Of course i'm pretty sure your knowledge of music theory impedes your understanding as to why this is the case. You also assume that dissonance is an absolute rather than a spectrum. any system that doesn't explain why and acts as a script, and no it isn't a map because you do not define the relation in concrete terms, in my opinion is rubbish. The goal should not be to have 2 songs that might have some harmonic congruences but rather the overall ebb and flow of a set. And your approach to music is rather disgusting. You don't think djs should have some knowledge of music theory ? You seem to even discourage it. Great attitude.

With the exception of modulations, all of that is irrelevant to 99% of mixing situations, because the structure of dance tracks has become rather simple since the replacement of actual musicians with computers. Our system, however does account for modulations.

Whether or not DJ's "should" have knowledge of music theory is irrelevant, because DJ's do not NEED to have such knowledge to mix harmonically. Music "should" adhere to basic rules of melody and harmony, but much of it does not. We deal with reality, not Pollyanna's Playground.

"You also assume that dissonance is an absolute rather than a spectrum." Untrue, as explained in the comment on "reasonable harmony."

Once again: Please answer my questions regarding your claims, especially an elaboration of your unsubstantiated claim of a "more efficient" system for selecting harmonic mixes. If you cannot understand my questions, please advise.

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Last edited by Camelot_Sound on Jul-30-2010 at 02:38

quote:

Originally posted by Camelot_Sound ...because the structure of dance tracks has become rather simple since the replacement of actual musicians with computers.

Do the who to the what, now?

Er, seriously - this is the dumbest reason in the world, that even if it were 100% true, would make it no less stupid.

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