Ok so I've been noticing all sorts of things lately a lot of which is considered pretty fundamental stuff but I'm bored so I will rant about it.

I've heard a lot on this forum about cutting your kicks under 50hz and that the human ear apparently can't hear that low which I think is bs. Because although I can't really hear it on my truths, I often produce a lot with my shitty bose headphones which are known to color the low end, and when I make that cut my kicks do tend to lose a certain warmth or roundness to them. Moreso between 30-50hz it seems.

However, thats still no reason to not cut your kicks. And for a long time I didn't cut them. But then I really started to compare my tracks to pros and noticed that a lot of them seem to be cutting their kicks.

I did a side by side to one of my reference tracks from tyas and the FIRST thing that stuck out like a sore thumb was my kick. And oddly enough it didn't sound too low, it sounded wayy too loud, way too bassy, and although tyas's kick sounded a bit hipassed, it seems to make a huge difference in the end as to how many sounds you can ultimately squeeze together. Common sense that I commonly ignored.

So now I hipass everything, even my sub. Nothing under 50hz comes through and I think this has opened up a lot of space to make my music "louder". Or seem like its louder at least.

This is a persistent issue with my music sounding bassy yet suffocated. I don't want to say muddy, it will just sound bassy and low volumewise. And sure enough I noticed when tyas was turning his equalizers on and off (he also had his kick/bass bussed to a compressor) I noticed w/out that cut his music sounded bassy and squashed EXACTLY like mine always does. When he turned the equalizer back on, sure the bass goes away but all the mid's and hi's would push to the forefront and have that "in your face quality".

So now I'm noticing that if you are bussing a kick/bass, and trying to squeeze lots of sounds in, the more you can hipass a sound the better it is in the end. Cause if you have low end coming into that bus with other sounds, you are likely sacrificing a good deal of presence or volume. I realized this tendency years ago, but honestly didn't think it mattered specifically in terms of kick/bass. If I sidechain my bass then its definitely not hitting when the kick does, so I'll keep anything under 50hz in my kick and bass. And sure I could do that, and sure my music might sound "ok", but to get that extra bit of loudness the pros get you simply can not do it seems.

It amazes me how everyone says this over and over, its such a common issue, but I still seem to see a lot of people making the same mistake. And I couldn't believe how low overall tyas kick sounded even with the low end cut. Sometimes I try to push my kick/bass bus up to -4 to get that extra bit of "slam", but everytime the track gets full with sounds it simply does not work. Especially if you want to put a limiter on the master its going to have to push other sounds down to let others in.

YOU HAVE TO CUT YOUR KICK AND BASS AND TRY TO KEEP YOUR KICK LOW AS POSSIBLE.

It really does matter lol. People keep talking about the perception of a kick sounding loud just because the sounds around it are so loud, and that really seems to be whats going on here most the time. I was *positive* he was doing something to his kicks like layering a low subby sine or something then when I did a side by side comparison, and found my kick drowning out his (I had both tempos set so my kick hit the same time his did, just to see what happened really). I couldn't believe my kick drum was squashing his out. Sure it caused a muddled mess of shit layering 2 tracks lol but just to see that opened my eyes a lot. To always be striving for a loud/bassy kick then find out thats my exact problem. There is nooooo fucking way he's layering shit underneath. He's keeping his kick really low, avoiding low frequency sounds, then pushing his other sounds in the mix so they peak properly. This is how he gets his synths to come in so clear and in your face. Stay the eff away from low frequencies.

And I wanted to talk about layering but this is more a rant than a tutorial of any sort.
I'm noticing over and over you really need to learn what synths are good at what and you need to be sure of it too lol.

I use to think z3ta sounded thick and punchy, it doesn't. I mean it can but thats not really where it excells imo. You need to learn where individual synths excell. What specifically can they add to a sound? If you have another synth excelling in the same area, you will very likely have issues layering them. Like z3ta and zebra, I find both sound very similar, and rarely ever layer them together.

Z3ta to me is good for getting clean and sharp transients basically or peaks out of my sound. The "bright" aspect of z3ta doesn't sound abrasive it sounds clean and well... just bright. Take a synth like synth1 however and the bright aspect of it can sound a bit dull or abrasive if you push it to sound bright. However, synth1 has a very thick and punchy tone to it. Very dense sounding. Z3ta seems to lack that. It will sound clean, but a lot of its presets sound flimsy and thin. ESPECIALLY when you open the filters. I think z3ta's filters suck honestly somethings just not right about them. I mean they sound clean but thin for w/e reason. In a full slamming mix its not going to hold up well. Sylenth can be bright too and tends to have a bit more warmth than z3ta, but it still is missing a fundamental density that I seem to get from synth1 and no other synth I know of really (am I wrong but doesn't synth1 sound "analog"? lol, maybe "cheap analog" but still very dense? At least with unison/saturation pushed up it does)

So naturally these 2 synths seem to compliment each other really well.

Its learning little stuff like this I think that really helps in the long run with getting good sounds.

Tyas mentioned how he likes to layer his virus with his ES2 in Logic. He talked specifically about these "frequency holes" and how the Virus will fill the frequency holes that the ES2 leaves behind. Now I have no idea wtf "frequency holes" means specifically nor do I think Tyas really knew wtf he was talking about, but I still understand him on a very intuitive level. ES2 seems to make bright sounds too (kinda like z3ta). So again he's identfying characteristics that truely benefit each other and using it to his advantage in his mixing.

I mean that one statement alone about "frequency holes" has made me think more than anything.
I hear this so often in tracks that sound empty. Like it perceptually sounds great, but damn you feel like there is still something huge missing from it. WTF is it? I think its those frequency holes Tyas talks about.

So nexus has lots of virus sounds. Some from other synths. But I've tried layering nexus or my virus with 3osc from fruity. The 3osc is perhaps the thinnest and most abrasive synth I can think of lol. Extremely abrasive if you try to make a saw lead out of it it sounds like a plastic annoying type of buzzy sound that completely lacks any warmth. However, when its layered with a warm saw lead from nexus or my virus, it will add a completely new dimension to the sound. Almost like the sound is going from 2D to 3D.

YOU WANT 3D SOUND!! You want that depth and dimension. Sound is one of the most interesting things in the world due to how easy it is to trick you. How often things can sound alike but how different they can technically be in reality. And its funny how in all 4 segments of Tyas tut he seems to use that layering of the ES2 and Virus. I guess he found something that worked for him.

Find something that works for you.
Another thing I hear on here sometimes is that sometimes a sound will sound awesome in a mix, but like shit when you solo it. And although that is true, when I saw Tyas solo all his sounds they sounded just as good as they did in the mix. Perhaps his they lacked the low end that comes from the kick but every sound he used sounded "complete". Those individual sounds were brought to their max potential. None of his sounds sounded "weak" at all when solo'd. Sure you want to hipass selectively but I still think individual sounds in a good track are going to tend to sound just as good solo'd as they do in the mix. Maybe I'm wrong idk.

I mean even his super hi passed sounds like his phased acids and what not still sounded lush and full when they were solo'd. So I tend to think individual sounds shouldn't sound all too different then they do in the mix. Sure they'll sound hipassed, but a good sound/pattern sounds good in a mix because it sounds good by itself. Maybe I'm wrong but I mean every single sound he solo'd sounded a lot better than when I solo my sounds. So he obviously is putting more work into each individual sound to make his tracks that much better. I mean pros' use the best sounds they can. So if your sounds sound that weak solod maybe they need something else other than being mixed with the right sounds. Maybe the sound itself just sucks lol.

Yeh so thats my brilliant expert advice for the day. Just wanted to rant about some bs I've been noticing lately. But it does seem like when pros make a track, they make each sound as good as they possibly can. Then they mix them. It doesn't seem like they make a mix then add sounds that just fit well whether they're thin or not. They get the most they possibly can out of each sound, then try putting them into the mix. If the sound needs to be cut down it will, but its still likely to be a very strong sound regardless. I mean just listen to your favorite tracks. I guarantee even when most of the sounds are solo'd they will still sound like they are rocking pretty hard. Thats my view however.

-Rox

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Sequencers: FL Studio 9XXL & Reason 3.
Main Synth Bass GTs - Pro-53, V-Station, Sytrus, Subtractor, Trilian, Blue, Sylenth & Z3ta.
Main Synth Lead/Pad GTs - Z3ta, Sytrus, Sylenth, Vangard, Albino & Nexus.
Main FXs GTs - Waves Plugins, Soundtoys, Volcano, FL Native FX.
Hardware - Truths, Echo Audiofire, Virus Snow, & Novation Xio Midi-Synth.

About the lowcut thing. My speakers go down to 38hz linearly and fall of from there. If I do a low cut (either because I think my mix is too bass heavy or lacking headroom for some tough compression) I'll nearly always do so near the 30-40Hz mark. You don't really notice it, there's plenty of low end to bang on any system and yet it gives a bit more space for the track to breathe in.

As for layering, it takes a lot of practice. I've never been fond of this and evade this whenever possible. I rather beef up the sound using alternative routes, that works better for me. I don't like having the automate too synths carefully to keep them matching, it takes too much time and annoys me.

The 3d sound is mostly a sound design/selection thing. Get yourself some good sample libraries and find sounds that complement eachother. Don't just add an extra loop/layer to spice things up, also look at what can be left out without affecting the groove you're after. Try gettin max effect out of minimal occupation in your mix. That adds more space for other instruments (and the mix to breathe), transparency. If something doesn't work within 20 minutes scrape it, often you're getting sidetracked at that moment. As for synths, get some good banks as a starting point or reference.

And last but not least. With a lot or remix packs that I get the solo'd sounds are very thin. It's adding them up to a total package which makes it sound cool.

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quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

low cut (and high cut) always helps for getting depth in the mix.
but i would normally leave the kick and subbass alone.

what a lot of producers like UMEK do is keep these full range, but just make sure there is not much else going on in the <300hz area
this makes the kick and bass appear to be huge...

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heard this track when i was out clubbing a while ago





thing that caught my attention was then when the dj (warmup) dropped it was the amount of sub in the track - not a whole lot

But it sounded really really good on the Funktion One, really punchy and rounded... we had been subjected to some fairly subby rumbly tracks before this one was dropped, it got people moving again, few whoops etc... positive reaction

I recognised the track and knew it was a Martin Buttrich production so i wasnt surprised it sounded good. Bought the track the next week so i could listen to it on my monitors - hardly any sub at all, just a very punchy kick, really surprising how little sub in the track!

Just kinda proved to me that you dont need so much sub on tracks like these - that is if your aiming towards tracks for clubs

/coolstory

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And those, who cut, what kinda slope you guys use? 6db? 12db? 24db? 48db?

Usually a Butterworth 8n filter for me. That's a 48dB slope.

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Storyteller Website | Storyteller @ Facebook | Storyteller @ Beatport | Storyteller @ Soundcloud | Stephen J. Kroos - Europa (Storyteller Remix)
Anthony Mea - Get It On (Storyteller Remix)

quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

Your goal is: get your music as loud as possible
Your goal should be: get your music as good as possible

quote:

Originally posted by Morvan Your goal is: get your music as loud as possible Your goal should be: get your music as good as possible

your 'good' can be much different then someone else's 'good.'

You make some good points Robby, and a lot of it (as you said) is kind of what i take for granted when engineering and producing a track. Storyteller's advice is spot on.

There are really two very separate things here though:

one is sound selection, and one is engineering (to mix it). While they're different processes, they're not mutually exclusive and there is crossover which you have to be mindful of during the process.

By this I mean the basic skill is sound selection and design. I think the quote about certain sounds sounding crap by themselves has been taken a little out of context and exagerrated - I believe the quote was from Eric Pryds and the correct context was that if you listen to his tracks, they're kind of minimal in terms of elements (sometimes only 6 or so components) that by themselves, could leave you thinking how is this going to work? (due to their simplicity or basic nature). But when combining several of these elements together, they work so well in terms of musical composition and complimentary sound design (each has their space and function etc). It's not a case of them being "crap" by themselves as a sound as such: in fact in many of his tracks each element is solo'd at some point, and again that adds to the beauty of them as each sound is brought in and fits so well.

This then lets him really push certain elements in the mix to be upfront and everything has space to breath and sit.

See what i mean:







I'm not saying everyone should produce like this though, he's just the extreme and clear example of this type of producing and he does it damn well.

The principles still remain though - give your elements room to sit individually, and if they have frequency crossover (or occupy the same frequency) make sure you pan them differently or that they have a different timbre or that you do something to separate them (like ducking/sidechain/different fx etc).

In terms of the low cut thing, I use a 48db slope and cut anything below 50hz (using just the logic eq which rocks). Personally, I feel that our music is club music or for listening to at home or on headphones. 90% of clubs don't have systems that handle true sub frequencies well (if the house engineer is a rasta though, you know you're going to have real sub) so you mostly get a muffled rumbled for those low freqs so that's my justification for cutting them out. Same for home listening and especially with headphones - 90% of them will not be able to properly reproduce anything below 80-100hz so best not to put it in there.

And don't forget 80hz will still hit a clubber in the chest nice and strong - it's just the stufflower than that will get messy on a bad system.

As for funktion 1, their systems are the clearest I've ever heard (maybe with excpetion with the odd custom martin audio system) in a club (and I'm not being biased because they were my clients) - they have this beautiful SNAP, right at 1khz, where the snare and vox are and a good clean bass response, which is why EDM sounds so damn good on it.

Finally, in regards to layer, I do it but sparingly. You should be able to get enough out of your sounds without having to layer all that much. Don;t get me wrong, sometimes those 2 layered basslines, pumping at different frequencies, is the golden ticket, but I think people get too carried away. As you said about knowing your synths, some are thicker than others and some have "holes" - I find the es2 very thin at times and even narrow band frequency specific (always hear it in PVD's tracks - those squiggly automated filter cutoffs etc) but layered with other synths like predator that have punch in the low end really make them gel. The biggest thing is learning (or teaching yourself) what goes with what, and when. Sometimes they simply don't fit, and you scrap that patch and move on other times it's like they were made to go together, and as you get better at it (which never ends imo) go get more of the instinct for the latter.

Just my 2c stream of consciousness

quote:

Originally posted by Morvan Your goal is: get your music as loud as possible Your goal should be: get your music as good as possible

I had some friends of mine (14 and 15) at my PC with me when I was playing my track from Fruity. I told them to tell me what sounded better, before or after. They said after.

After was as loud as I could compress it and with a lot of high treble and low bass. I thought they were crazy.

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quote:

Originally posted by .JEKL. your 'good' can be much different then someone else's 'good.'

This is what every single stupid argument on this forum boils down to. I kind of wish people understood this more, but I've stopped expecting them to.

quote:

Originally posted by .JEKL. your 'good' can be much different then someone else's 'good.'

Huh? Are you saying all musical quality is subjective, and the majority of people won't be able to tell a good song from a bad song? Beethoven's 5th from fingernails on a blackboard? And in the absence of being able to separate bad from good, all we can really do is to compete on level, since that's not as subjective?

Re Robby's original comment. I've been saying this for a while. Good sounds, set at appropriate levels. Most of us, when we start out, push our kicks and overall bass region up way too high, looking for solidity and punch. It doesn't work.

I remember you saying about a year ago that you knew all about setting appropriate levels, and that it wasn't about something so simple. You probably went right back to processors such as RBass/MaxxBass, or looked for other tools the "pros" just "had to be using". It just couldn't be as simple as choosing the right kick and setting it at an appropriate level and the job's done.