I had been using CDJ's for all of my mixing needs for the past several years, but when it comes to sets consisting entirely of the above mentioned genres, I find myself increasingly unsatisfied with their ability to provide that cohesive, fully integrated feel I'm looking for. That is, the wild variety of musical composition and structure among otherwise compatible tracks is often forcing me to settle for simple intro/outro blends when using CDJ's, which isn't what I'm aiming for.
That said, it would seem fairly apparent that this is finally the motivation I need to explore avenues of digital mixing, and I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction in regards to my concerns. I'm not asking for a tutorial on whatever is recommended to me, just an explanation of what, why, and any hardware you feel would be a solid place to start.
Originally posted by Paradox Lost
That is, the wild variety of musical composition and structure among otherwise compatible tracks is often forcing me to settle for simple intro/outro blends when using CDJ's, which isn't what I'm aiming for.
What are you aiming for, technically? The area of music you're describing is absolutely massive, far larger and more varied than dance music, and there are innumerable different approaches and types of mix to be found. Also, what is the function of the mixes you want to create? Obviously you aren't going to be playing many live gigs with ambient, especially with the demise of chill-out rooms. If you want to create sets to listen back to, then I'd probably advise you to give up on a live setup altogether. Well-crafted ambient sets are usually the result of hours of sore-eyed laptop fiddling rather than one-take live recordings.
My Post Apocalyptic Transmissions mix was my most intricate mix and definitely not a live set. It involved multiple sound sources, layering, re-editing and use of my own samples/sounds, but I put it together on a very cheap audio mixing program. You can download free audio editors like Audacity that let you time-stretch, alter pitch, EQ and a variety of other things. I pre-edited tracks in that way and then put them together in the mixer. There's nothing technically complex about this method, it just involves a lot of patience and attention to detail. Any beatmatching and synching is done by carefully lining up the waveforms. You can play back each section as many times as you want and edit volume levels, panning etc. until it's all absolutely perfect.
So you can shell out for more sophisticated programs like ProTools, but whatever route you go for, I personally think this non-live methodology is the best for this ambient sets.
That non-live approach is precisely what I'm aiming for, mainly due to the fact that I've been unable to achieve my desired result with a live setup. That said, my intent is to create transitions that consist of incorporating specific elements of an upcoming track into the one playing out, and gradually adding more with plenty of looping/layering as the existing track fades out (if that makes any sense). The reason I'm focused on this approach is because, as has been acknowledged by all three of us, there's such a staggeringly diverse scope of structure and composition within these genres, and there's just no amount of EQ'ing possible with a standard setup that enables me to bring everything together in a way that doesn't just result in everything either sounding completely cluttered, or intro/outro jukeboxed. I know something like this is possible with Ableton, but I wanted to get some additional recommendations before making a decision.
If I could trouble you to be a bit more specific as to what you used, and what you used it for, that would be especially useful.
quote:
Originally posted by CalvP
As you have CDJ's already, i would advise you to pick up NI Traktor & use a mixture of time coded CD's & midi controller/s. This will allow you to incorporate your existing setup & offer many many further advanced options, like digital sample decks, advanced FX, creating personal edits, mixing in key (from your tagged database) etc etc.
Depending on your musical experience? i think it's also worth mentioning that something like NI Machine or Ableton Live, will enable you to improvise & add further instrumentation...something chillout lends itself very well to!
Yeah, my very first thought when contemplating an alternative to CDJ's was Ableton. I have no expectations of scoring myself any gigs playing this variety of music, and my intent from the very beginning was to just craft sets for home listening, so Ableton seemed the way to go. In terms of what I described to J regarding what I'm aiming for, do you think I'm better off with Ableton over Traktor?
Last edited by Paradox Lost on Aug-26-2011 at 20:35
Aug-26-2011 20:27
meriter
-
Registered: May 2009
Location:
If this isn't a job for Ableton I don't know what is.
Aug-26-2011 21:53
SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.
Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester
quote:
Originally posted by Paradox Lost
If I could trouble you to be a bit more specific as to what you used, and what you used it for, that would be especially useful.
The latter is pretty good at working out the tempo of even predominantly beatless tracks, and is generally handy when you're mixing in a non-live workflow and aren't beatmatching by ear. The Acoustica program lets you chop up sound files with a simple drag and drop interface. Again, it's not going to give you an air-tight algorithmic precision, but I've used it to re-edit a lot of tracks I've gone on to use in my sets. I must stress that my methodology is a little like Burial making his tracks in Soundforge and hand-placing samples: compared to the tech guys using Ableton it's extremely primitive, but it does give you that hand-crafted effect with minor imperfections and less quantized tightness (depending on how obsessive you're willing to be).
I'm not talking you through my techniques play-by-play unless you tell me exactly what kind of ambient you're interested in mixing. It could be anything from drone to psy-chill to ambient dub, and they're all very different beasts with different requirements.
quote:
The basic problem with ambient is that it doesn't contain a standard four on the floor beat AND DJ friendly intro. The intro/outro is vital because it dictates a standard-starting with a soaring pad, big string section etc would make mixing smoothly very difficult, not to mention cause an extremely abrupt transition.
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Can this be my goal??!
tbf it isn't all thaaaat hard. I just can't do it on the spot generally. But it can be done. It's all about figuring out if they will work harmonically which some people can do this by ear with natural talent unlike others. You can also definitely work to catch a better ear for it. Including ambient.
Aug-27-2011 06:47
Paradox Lost
In This Twilight
Registered: Aug 2007
Location: San Francisco
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I'm not talking you through my techniques play-by-play unless you tell me exactly what kind of ambient you're interested in mixing. It could be anything from drone to psy-chill to ambient dub, and they're all very different beasts with different requirements.
I'm not really in need of a play-by-play tutorial, as I'm just looking for some general software direction. For what it's worth, though, a great percentage of the material I'm playing is Drone Ambient, which actually provides me the least amount of problems, as a bit of thoughtful EQ'ing can go a long way in that regard. But there are a number of other tracks that I would say are categorically 'chillout' that prove troublesome in terms traditionally linear mixing. Like this, for example: I'd prefer to isolate and loop just that underlying percussion section that begins around 14 seconds in order to create a more extended transition:
And perhaps the same thing with the percussion that kicks in around 45 seconds, or so:
It just seems that, when I try to mix this stuff normally, I'm forced to bring in more elements of a track more quickly than I'd prefer to, and it often just feels fragmented and mashed together. So I'd rather just incrementally bring in and loop specific elements (not just percussion lines) in order to slowly give a more cohesive shape to my transitions. I don't intend to accomplish all my transitions this way, as there is something to be said for the potency of occasionally slamming something in, but it's something I'd like to do more often than not.
Is what I'm after even at all possible (to the extent that I'm describing it, that is)? I don't mind hard, painstaking work, as I'm willing to invest all that's necessary in getting the job done.
Last edited by Paradox Lost on Aug-27-2011 at 09:58
Aug-27-2011 09:48
SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.
Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester
quote:
Originally posted by CalvP
I'm a terrible DJ - along with all those other terrible DJ's that mix using intro's & outro's. Not forgetting to add all the terrible producers who have the audacity to structure their tracks.
Thankfully you're here to educate us all. I look forward to you uploading a live 3 minute mix seamlessly blending 2 string sections, 2 pads, 2 leads, 2 kicks, 2 basslines, 2 percussion lines, 2 vocals...
Why on Earth would I do that? I will, however, upload a mix as you described: an ambient blend, no four on the floor intro/outro and mixing into a big soaring string section. This is from a well-received mix I shared on TA a couple of years ago:
I've added some helpful comments to the description on Soundcloud. For the sake of being instructive, here's the first track (second isn't on Youtube):
Clashes harmonically? The first track is in Bmin, the second is in Emin. Perfectly acceptable harmonic transition. And I'm quite worried by what level of emotional apoplexy fits your billing of "soaring". It should also be perfectly obvious that I know that isn't what the OP is asking for, because neither of those tracks are ambient.
And I called you a bad DJ because you didn't say that. You said this:
quote:
The intro/outro is vital because it dictates a standard-starting with a soaring pad, big string section etc would make mixing smoothly very difficult, not to mention cause an extremely abrupt transition.
Not only is this a massive generalisation, it's quite obviously wrong. You didn't mention time signature at all there.
Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ici William Bumbray du service de police de la communauté urbaine de Montréal Esti.
use filters...profit.
___________________
quote:
Originally posted by EddieZilker
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Aug-27-2011 16:05
Paradox Lost
In This Twilight
Registered: Aug 2007
Location: San Francisco
quote:
Originally posted by CalvP
PM'ing you - there is absolutely no sense in continuing this publicly. This is a thread about mixing Ambient, not an e-dick DJ measuring contest.
Well, in the meantime, I would continue to be appreciative of any input either of you would have on my most recent post.
Not all the material I have and play is necessarily beatless, ambient music, and it runs the gamut among the (interchangeable?) parent genres I mentioned in the title to this thread; I don't think I'm quite able to narrow it down any further when speaking of them this broadly.
What you want to do is definitely possible, but you might want/need more sophisticated software and more honed skills to get really smooth results. Particularly if you want to isolate certain parts of a track - that's outside my domain.
