I`d say after.

I have my master bus clipping all the time when im producing, doesnt matter i get no distortion or anything, it only matters when you are doing the final mixdown.

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It's more of a post production/mastering thing. I wouldn't personally use a limiter until I've got it all to sit right and compressed the fuck out of everything.

quote:

Originally posted by Sound O fTrance are these generally supposed to be placed on the master channel PRIOR to beginning a new production?

I would strongly recommend against doing this. Placing a limiter on the master outs is something that should be done at absolute final mastering step, after your mixdown is complete. Remember, that if your mixdown is done properly, the final master stage should only consist of pumping up the volume of the track by 1-3 dB at MOST and adding a tiny bit of sparkle. It should NOT be used to fix a poor mixdown. I've made plenty of tracks that sounded just fine at mixdown and needed only 1-2 Db of increase at the mastering stage because the mixdown was done properly in the first place.

It is actually advantageous to NOT having the limiter on during mixdown because you want to see if you have any stray peaks that clip the master out and try to fix those. If everything fits together properly, then you shouldn't have any massive peaks. Things like that generally indicate a terrible frequency overlap or a particular sound that needs to be tamed with a compressor on the individual channel.

In many cases, trying to mix your track through a limiter plugin is going to lead to an overcompressed final product, which is generally not desirable. In addition, you probably do not want to be trying to mix through anything that colours the sound (as many mastering limiters do) lest it impair your ability to make sound judgements about the mixdown.

Trust me, if you get the right sounds, in the right place from the beginning, mastering becomes a very simple exercise. Make it sound good BEFORE you master.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J I would strongly recommend against doing this. Placing a limiter on the master outs is something that should be done at absolute final mastering step, after your mixdown is complete. Remember, that if your mixdown is done properly, the final master stage should only consist of pumping up the volume of the track by 1-3 dB at MOST and adding a tiny bit of sparkle. It should NOT be used to fix a poor mixdown. I've made plenty of tracks that sounded just fine at mixdown and needed only 1-2 Db of increase at the mastering stage because the mixdown was done properly in the first place. It is actually advantageous to NOT having the limiter on during mixdown because you want to see if you have any stray peaks that clip the master out and try to fix those. If everything fits together properly, then you shouldn't have any massive peaks. Things like that generally indicate a terrible frequency overlap or a particular sound that needs to be tamed with a compressor on the individual channel. In many cases, trying to mix your track through a limiter plugin is going to lead to an overcompressed final product, which is generally not desirable. In addition, you probably do not want to be trying to mix through anything that colours the sound (as many mastering limiters do) lest it impair your ability to make sound judgements about the mixdown. Trust me, if you get the right sounds, in the right place from the beginning, mastering becomes a very simple exercise. Make it sound good BEFORE you master.

My knowledge re: the specifics of mixing and mastering is quite limited but what Eric J says meshes exactly with what I've read on these (and other) forums as well as with what I've heard from other producers.

Get the mix to sound great first, then apply a limiter(s) at the final stage(s).

yea definitely put the limiter at the final stage of production.

i tend to mix with absolutely no plugins on the master bus.

i then bounce it down to 24 bit .aif and master it with a brand new logic session open. for some reason things tend to sound better and more in place when i do that.

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im feeling a minority here, but thats how i work:

i put a compressors on the master with general known settings, after that a limiter, all that during production process, it helps me determine sound levels of instruments, later on when mastering begins i remove the compressor and limiter and export the whole, and then master it, the point of having a compressor and a limiter on the master during production is to have a preview of the sound more "mastered"...

it helps me, i dunno if itll help you

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IMO it's better to do it before you start the track, that way, you'll be mixing to the limiter. If you do that afterwards, you might have to adjust some levels.
I think that if you want anything on the master (say compressor etc) you should do it before the production and adjust it during the production. I don't like it when I get unexpected soundings on the end.

But I think it's everyone for themselfs.. this is my way

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i can highly recommend the workflow of the 2 posts above me. i do it always this way aswell. it will really help to improve soundquality as you can make decisions which you would only find out in the end if you would work the "old" way.

its not always desired to have a mix peaking constantly at 0db either.

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quote:

Originally posted by Subtle its not always desired to have a mix peaking constantly at 0db either.

word.

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quote:

Originally posted by Subtle its not always desired to have a mix peaking constantly at 0db either.

Absolutely. Dynamics in a trance song are extremely important. However, unless the master limiter has been set incredibly strangely, the limiter won't cause the song to constantly peak at 0db.

Both methods are perfectly acceptable. There are countless examples of incredible tunes produced using both methods. To each their own, as long as they're creating fantastic music!