Started it in the dj thread.

I suppose I am often just dumbfounded by how obtuse the dance scene seems to be. I was listening to a podcast, i liked the track, but there was no way to know which track was playing. So this dj is playing a track he didn't make for free, meanwhile, i want to buy it, and by I , i mean the average joe. Not a dj. IE and actual real market unlike beatport which caters to djs ie nobody,

I mean i just don't get why things like this have not been implemented. I mean the fact that producers still sell to djs rather than consumers, i mean what the hell are producers thinking ?

It seems so simple. You can imbed tracklists in podcasts, so that isn't the issue, and it wuld not take very much effort to create a portal to itunes, yes ITUNEs, not beatport, for actual people to buy tracks.

I mean do producers even realize how fucking small beatport sales are ? Compared to Itunes ? Deadmau5 made money from selling music to normal people, not djs. Why do people not seem to understand this.

Djs could also be included in the formula albeit a much smaller point for directing someone to a track that sells because of the podcast.

It just kills me when there are so many opportunities for producers to make money but nobody seems to be doing anything, And the sad part is that i'm not a business man, i don't think about money or ways to make money. It just seems like common sense. I mean honestly, why is this not in place.

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"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

I think one of the issues is that Beatport has become aspirational to producers as it's like 'my name in lights' or something. In reality you want to be gunning for itunes or whatever, but as you said in another thread musicians are dumb. There's also an assumption that no matter what you read, you can still make money out of music by being mediocre. That's not really the point though.

Having quietly run a little label for a while I can tell you that the producers I speak to don't even really seen to care about money at all, it's all a big glory hunt. Perhaps there's an assumption that glory will lead onto financial success and superstar DJ status, but none of them seemed to really want to put any effort into selling themselves at all.

For me, making music is simply a promo tool for me to sell other stuff. Make yourself aspirational (like Beatport has) and people will want to buy into it.

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Soundcloud

www.mixcloud.com does it quite well

(if the uploader decides to put the info up)

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...25&forumid=8&s=


kinda sad how djs and producers seem to be at odds. SOme of you as producers should say how you feel.

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"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

I've been beating this DJ drum for forever. I have never understood why producers cater so hard to DJs. First, this whole notion that only DJs understand what works on the dancefloor is pure bullshit, yet they keep telling the producers that, and the producers keep buying into it. DJ-friendly intros, formulaic structures, etc. to appease the mighty (or lazy, if you prefer) DJ all just perpetuate the stagnant nature of EDM.

Regardless, if you want to sell tracks on anything other than Beatport, I think that you have to think beyond the DJ and beyond the dance floor. IMO a solid track should work both on the dance floor and on an iPod; otherwise, it probably won't sell very well on iTunes.

The problem with aiming for iTunes, as I see it from my admittedly limited perspective, is that it's too mainstream. EDM producers generally seem to have this mindset that anything popular is bad, cheesy, etc. It's far cooler to be the starving artist type who is secretly hoping to become the next sellout. In other words, nothing has changed in decades - it's still cool to have an "I don't give a f###, I'm an 'underground' artist" attitude and bitch about the mainstream, until a major label waves a bag of cash in front of your face. So, aiming for the Beatport et al portals is the fashionable option that makes hobbyists feel like they've attained some level of legitimacy without selling out. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way it seems to me.

quote:

Originally posted by tehlord Having quietly run a little label for a while I can tell you that the producers I speak to don't even really seen to care about money at all, it's all a big glory hunt.

That would be me, sorta. I guess you could call it a "glory hunt", but I prefer to think of it as just getting our music out there through the best channels available. I don't have the time or energy to try to get our tracks on iTunes by ourselves, promote it, etc., so I prefer to just let the labels handle it. As for the money, I've never made enough to really care and I don't have any intentions of ever giving up my day job or my lifestyle. But, that's because I'm old.

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quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik I've been beating this DJ drum for forever. I have never understood why producers cater so hard to DJs. First, this whole notion that only DJs understand what works on the dancefloor is pure bullshit, yet they keep telling the producers that, and the producers keep buying into it. DJ-friendly intros, formulaic structures, etc. to appease the mighty (or lazy, if you prefer) DJ all just perpetuate the stagnant nature of EDM.

In my opinion, in listening to this music for 20 years or so, I have always felt like EDM, as in electronic DANCE music, sounds better in the context of a mixed set. For me, dance music is not meant to be listened to as individual tracks like all the "other" forms of music out there. This is one of the great things about dance music for me, its one of the things that makes it different.

I like to think of each individual track as a piece of a puzzle, and it's the DJ's job to put those pieces together in a meaningful way to create something that's is greater than the sum of it's parts. Admittedly, that's probably a bit cheesy and idealist, but that's how I have always thought of it.

I came into this music as a DJ first. I was introduced to this music by DJ's and I started DJing well before I ever took a stab at producing music. I suspect that a large majority of others in this business followed a similar path (with a few exceptions, i.e. BT), which may help to explain why we all take this approach. I can see how someone coming from a traditional music background might not see the value of DJ friendly intros or "formulaic" structures, but it makes perfect sense to me. In order for all the tracks to be "interchangeable", as it were, they all must have some element of commonality.

As to whether or not these things contribute to the stagnation of dance music, is another discussion entirely. Personally, I'm not in the "dance music is stagnant" camp, but others are entitled to their opinions.

A lot of this also comes from a time when there wasn't quite as much "trainspotting" going on and people, as they say, "Trust the DJ". Trance and a lot of modern progressive try to incorporate a lot of "traditional" song elements into their tracks, but this music has its roots in house and techno, where so many of the tracks were very loop-based and meant to be used as "building blocks" and manipulated by DJ's on the fly. Look at DJ's like Jeff Mills, Carl Cox, Richie Hawtin. Those are some of the guys that pioneered this approach. Hell, even Sasha came to prominence by playing acapella's over Italian house records. A lot of that magic is gone these days for various reasons.

So yeah, if you want EDM to take the path of traditional popular music, with shortened track lengths, more commercialized structures and more "mass appeal", then by all means make music to target the iTunes market. However, for most of us, doing that takes a lot of the magic of this music away and personally, I'd rather just see the music stay in the hands of the DJ's and let the general public consume it through the context of a mixed set, just like they have been doing for over 30 years now.

regardless,

djs , producers and the labels need to figure out something as there is so much money not being made. A first year econ student could look at the situation and say , wow, what a bunch of idiots. I mean you have to be absolutely brain dead not to realize the potential earnings one could do by not really doing much at all.

but djs are incredibly selfish and stupid. Producers are young and naive and labels , lol well fuck , ya not even gonna go there.

I mean it is pretty sad when a consumer has to point this shit out.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

Yeah, there isn't as much money being made NOW, but in the vinyl era, this all worked just fine. There is still money to be made, it's just the sources have changed. The EDM industry is simply suffering from the same economic problems that are currently plaguing the traditional music industry.

How do you make money in an industry where the primary method of product distribution has gone from a physical product to a digital file?

So instead of putting out a track, printing up 500 records and selling them for $10 a pop, now you have to put out a track and have to rely on selling it for $1.49 a pop. Add on top of that the reduced barriers for entry due to digital distribution (read: everyone and they mother can get on Beatport), and the math pretty much speaks for itself. Piracy also plays a part because before digital distribution, the average consumer couldn't copy a record and play it out on a turntable.

What you are seeing now is that instead of some DJ's or producers making thousands of dollars to produce music (which would be eventually released on vinyl), the income stream has shifted and making music is simply a tool to driving bookings as a DJ. Original tracks are nothing more than a promotional tool for the vast majority of artists out there, used only for the purposes of keeping a name out there and getting gigs booked. No longer can you count on track sales as a reliable method of income.

This also explains why you see the massive collapse of distribution (read: Amato) and the consolidation of labels (Armada). If you are going to make money as a label, you need to keep your fingers in as many pies (read: Genres) as possible and supplement that with a healthy rotation of gigs from your core roster of DJ's. That is how labels survive today. Anything else is a purely altruistic venture (which also has its merits).

Hell, in this new economic climate, DJing has become even MORE important that ever for most EDM artists, because in the face of shrinking profits from making music, DJing has become the only viable income stream for all but the biggest artists. Those that started their careers as DJ's first and producers second are still thriving despite the changing economic conditions, while those who were producers only have since moved on to greener pastures (film, TV etc.)

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J Hell, in this new economic climate, DJing has become even MORE important that ever for most EDM artists, because in the face of shrinking profits from making music, DJing has become the only viable income stream for all but the biggest artists. Those that started their careers as DJ's first and producers second are still thriving despite the changing economic conditions, while those who were producers only have since moved on to greener pastures (film, TV etc.)

I think that gets back to L4C's (and, to a less extent, my) original point, that producers should be aiming for larger revenue streams (e.g., iTunes) rather than relying on Beatport/DJs to facilitate sales, and/or resorting to DJing themselves as a means of pushing their own tracks. The problem still comes back to your point above, that sales of music are down everywhere. Then, you have the issues of an oversaturated market and illegal sharing. If there's an easy solution for making money in this climate, I sure as hell don't know what it is, but, as I mentioned, it has never been a priority for me, so I don't really think about it much.

Oh, and good to see you back here Eric! How's the little guy doing?

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there is a myth that music revenue is down. It is up and i honestly think there was maybe 1 or 2 years where it wasn't up. It has consistently been higher every year. Where the money is , that is the only difference. There is way more ways to make sell your music. Beatport has such a small niche of consumers and considering the fact that normal people, yup, the average joe wants to buy dance music too, i just don't get it.

1$ might not seem like alot. Guess how much most artists made from vynil ? You would be lucky to get 25 cents. The point is that 10 cents, might seem like nothing but where as before , the amount of people you could reach was limited, you could technically sell 10 000 000 downloads on some random impulse buyers doing it at the same time.

And that is why i think podcasts are powerful. Because music is an impulse purchase. The mac store model is based on impulse. 1 $ , ya nothing, but you just buy because it is so easy. People don't want to have to join things. 1 place to buy everything. That is why itunes is where you can make money. Beatport, you make absolutely nothing. But if people don't know what is playing, well fuck, i mean i don't really know how else you can fuck your scene in the ass in any more concrete way.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

because it costs money to sell your shit on itunes and many producers rely on labels to market their tracks knowing djs will go and buy the music.

and i suppose it depends on what type of tunes you currently make hip hop has a wider scope to it artist need beats and the people who make em need the artists.

as a edm producer i found it hard to get ya tunes out to the buying public.

question do the buying public really buy dance music as a single anymore?

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik I think that gets back to L4C's (and, to a less extent, my) original point, that producers should be aiming for larger revenue streams (e.g., iTunes) rather than relying on Beatport/DJs to facilitate sales, and/or resorting to DJing themselves as a means of pushing their own tracks.

The market is no longer about selling tracks, as it was during the vinyl days. Your product price is reduced 85% AND you have the same number of people buying your stuff. It'd be one thing if you could offset the price reduction with greater volume, but that's way down as well. 1,000 sales in the vinyl era meant $10,000, but only means $1,490 today (not taking into account distributors cuts and the like), and very few people sell 1,000 copies of a track.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik The problem still comes back to your point above, that sales of music are down everywhere. Then, you have the issues of an oversaturated market and illegal sharing.

Exactly. There is no longer a market for selling music. The market has now changed to being about selling performances. You as a DJ can make more money in a single night than it would take selling 20 tracks on Beatport in a year.

Really, it's not much different in the non-EDM world. Bands make their money on tour, not by selling CD's (or mp3's on iTunes). Hell, even before the digital revolution, most of the bands own income was from touring. It was the record labels that made money from CD sales.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik If there's an easy solution for making money in this climate, I sure as hell don't know what it is, but, as I mentioned, it has never been a priority for me, so I don't really think about it much.

Well as a music producer, those who did it for the money have moved on to other ventures that make money (TV, film, video games, etc.). Those who did it for the love, probably still do it, but don't rely on it for their primary income as they once did. Guys like Barry Jamieison still make house music because "it's in their blood" as he puts it, but he makes music for TV shows to pay the bills.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Oh, and good to see you back here Eric! How's the little guy doing?

He's good, growing like a weed. It's amazing how much time having a little baby takes from your free time. I'm only just now getting back in to the music side of things.