Hi all - I've been trying to read up on 7th chords and how to effectively learn the inversions. I came across a read which was interesting, but a bit confusing, and I'm not able to ask the original person for clarification.

I'm confused first off why the author references F7, or F Major 7, as having the notes C E G Bb. The method for learning the inversions seems interesting but I'm missing a frame of reference here.

Does this make sense to any of you guys? Many thanks for any input to help make this clearer.

quote:

The inversions of seventh chords are really very easy. It is better to know how to figure them out so as to not needlessly make it a memory excercise. You start from the root and you count when you find notes. So for instance if you have the dominant seventh chord of F Major you have the notes C-E-G-Bb. If you have this chord in root position it would be Bb G E C (From Bottom) If you start from the bottom note and count you get C > E is three C(1)d(2)E(3) C > G is five C(1)d(2)e(3)f(4)G(5) C > Bb is seven C(1)d(2)e(3)f(4)g(5)a(6)Bb(7) So we notate the root seventh chord as 7/5/3 or just as F7 If you have this chord in first inversion you have the notes C Bb G E E > G is three E(1)f(2)G(3) E > Bb is five E(1)f(2)g(3)a(4)Bb(5) E > C is six E(1)f(2)g(3)a(4)b(5)C(6) So the seventh chord in first inversion would be notated as 6/5/3 or just 6/5 Second inversion we have the notes. E C Bb G (Bottom) G > Bb is three G(1)a(2)Bb(3) G > C is four G(1)a(2)b(3)C(4) G > E is six G(1)a(2)b(3)c(4)d(5)E(6) So second inversion could be noted 6/4/3 but not 6/4 (That is our triads in second inversion) Also sometimes noted as 4/3 Third Inversion we have the notes. G E C Bb Bb > C is two Bb(1)c(2) Bb > E is four Bb(1)c(2)d(3)E(4) Bb > G is six Bb(1)c(2)d(3)e(4)f(5)G(6) So we can note them as 6/4/2 but again not 6/4. Sometimes it may be noted as 4/2

He's not referring to an F7 chord, he's referring to the dominant (V7) chord in the key of F major. The V7 chord in F major is C7 (C E G Bb), and the third inversion of that chord from bottom to top is Bb C E G.

And, when he writes "So we notate the root seventh chord as 7/5/3 or just as F7", that's a typo. He means C7. I see why he chose to use C7, but his reference to it as the dominant of F major is unnecessary and needlessly confusing for the purposes of demonstrating 7th note (third) inversions. Maybe it was just taken out of context?

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Last edited by cryophonik on Feb-07-2014 at 06:50

Thanks Cryo - that makes sense. Let me ask a followup if I may. I've been trying to learn more improv. So I understand this takes knowing my 7th chords and inversions, what I'm not sure on is:

- What chords actually go with each degree of the blues scale? It's obviously not all diatonic chords, so how do I know which might work for a given note?

- What scales should I really have a grip on for jazz/blues/general improv? I know the basic blues scale (not sure if this is major or minor blues,) my majors, minors, harmonic minors, phrygian, at least in a few keys each so far. I'm not sure what other scales (and chords for those scales) I should be trying to get under my fingers as soon as possible.

- Also left hand fingerings for the 7th chords seems odd. For example, with a C7 in root position how would I avoid having my thumb on a black key?

Thanks for any suggestions. Much appreciated.

All diatonic chords.

Learn theory from a historical perspective or none of it makes sense. You are already 300 years ahead.

Your thumb should be on the Bb

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quote:

Originally posted by The Mysterious Stranger - What chords actually go with each degree of the blues scale? It's obviously not all diatonic chords, so how do I know which might work for a given note?

Blues doesn't really lend itself to harmonic analysis in the traditional/classical sense all that well, not to mention that there are many variations of the blues scale. I find it best to think of the scales in terms of variations on the major/minor scales (e.g., accidentals, chromatic passing tones) and they are generally used more for the lead line than the harmony. Most blues chord progressions consist of the standard 12-bar blues (e.g., using I IV V chords in major, or i iv/IV V7 in minor) or variations of it, but it's very common to add a minor 7th to any/all of them (e.g., I I7 [actually, a V7/VI] IV7 V7]). It's also somewhat common to use a vi-chord, or even a V7/V (e.g., in the key of C, a V7/V is a D7 that resolves to a G or G7 chord). But, these chords aren't really built on the scale degrees of the blues scale - they're built more on a conventional major or variations of the minor scales. The blues scales itself is played over these standard blues chord progressions to give it the characteristic blues sound, primarily by the addition of a "blue note" (usually a flattened 5th scale degree, but can be others).

quote:

Originally posted by The Mysterious Stranger - What scales should I really have a grip on for jazz/blues/general improv? I know the basic blues scale (not sure if this is major or minor blues,) my majors, minors, harmonic minors, phrygian, at least in a few keys each so far. I'm not sure what other scales (and chords for those scales) I should be trying to get under my fingers as soon as possible.

Lots of variations on the blues scale to start with (both major and minor - also look into "the blue note" and get comfortable with the different variations. Sounds like you've got a decent understanding of the conventional scales/modes, so get comfortable knowing/playing them in every key. Melodic minor is another variation of the minor scale that you should know.

quote:

Originally posted by The Mysterious Stranger - Also left hand fingerings for the 7th chords seems odd. For example, with a C7 in root position how would I avoid having my thumb on a black key?

Yup, as L4C said, your left thumb should be on the Bb in that case. If you've got big hands like I do and can play the Bb with your index finger, there may be the occasional time that you'd want to do this (e.g., when adding the root note an octave higher with your thumb), but that's not very common. Regardless, it's not uncommon to play black keys with your left hand. Keeping your thumb off black keys is primarily a general rule of thumb (pun not intended) for playing scales, etc. with your right hand. But, there are many situations when your right thumb will play black notes anyway (e.g., playing octaves, or other large intervals).


edit: typos, clarifications

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Last edited by cryophonik on Feb-07-2014 at 20:48