Having a forum that exclusively deals with such issues I thought bringing http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...ht=food+thought back to life might be a good idea..since the subject "democracy- indeed the best pattern for a state?" interests me.

If you could please read the thread but continue the discussion in THIS very thread (as the other one would be in the chill out room)...

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

here is the original post by {b.s.e}

quote:

nietzche food for thought i just read this, thought some people would find it interesting. Democracy means drift; it means permision given to each part of an organism to do just what it pleases; it means the lapse of coherence and interdependance, the enthronment of liberty and chaos. It means the impossibility of great men - how could great men submit to the indignities and indecencies of an election?...How can the superman arise in such a soil? And how can a nation become great when its greatest men lie unused, discouraged, perhaps unknown. ... Not the superior man but the majority man becomes the ideal and the model; everybody comes the resemble everybody else. Freidrich Nietzche

>JM<

Tip: you could've bumped the thread and asked a mod to move it here

It doesn't matter whether it's a dictatorship or a democracy. It matters if it's wise or selfish.

Exampe: A democracy in which everyone thinks only about their own needs is worse than a dictatorship where the leader cares about the people (that listens to their problems and stuff). It works the other way round. A selfish dictator will lead to the country's ruin, while a wise democracy (from the people for the people) is a very good idea.

Pluto used to say that democracy was bad. I'd say that any form of government may be bad - it's not the number of rulers that matter: it's their behaviour.

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Ultimately, I think we can all agree that the best form of government is the one that best facilitates the placement of the most suitable leaders into positions of leadership.

The mechanism that a representative democracy uses to place suitable leaders into positions of leadership is the election and, in some cases, appointment by previously elected officials.

Nietzche's argument is correct in that democracy fails to do a particularly commendable job of this. The reason for this is that the incompetent masses are not competent enough to select competent leadership on a consistent and optimal basis. However, Nietzche seems to naively believe that in the absence of democracy, the most suitable leaders will make themselves apparent and naturally rise to power.

This is a very foolish belief, because while the system of government he advocates does a good job of selecting intelligent leaders, it does an even better job of selecting ruthless ones. The best leaders will sacrifice for the greater good, but the type of people who would come to power in his system would not. Therefore, it does not accomplish the goal of selecting leaders optimally, either.

I believe that the actual best system of government lies between these two, but for now I would argue democracy to be superior, merely because it tends to be characterized by long-term stability, whereas Nietzche's type of government tends to be characterized by peaks and troughs.

Cheers,

Arbiter

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Nietzche's argument is correct in that democracy fails to do a particularly commendable job of this. The reason for this is that the incompetent masses are not competent enough to select competent leadership on a consistent and optimal basis. However, Nietzche seems to naively believe that in the absence of democracy, the most suitable leaders will make themselves apparent and naturally rise to power. This is a very foolish belief, because while the system of government he advocates does a good job of selecting intelligent leaders, it does an even better job of selecting ruthless ones. The best leaders will sacrifice for the greater good, but the type of people who would come to power in his system would not. Therefore, it does not accomplish the goal of selecting leaders optimally, either.

I haven't had a chance to read a lot of Nietzche, but of the stuff that I *have* read I never got the impression that he cared about the "greater good"...

Nietzche believed that most people were essentially unworthy peons, people unable to think for themselves, which he defined as the "herd mentality".

I think he realized that ruthless people could end up in power as a result of his beliefs, but I also think that he advocated that. The powerful man should have almost unlimited rights to do as he pleases in Nietzche's world, and so what if a few cows get stepped on along the way as long as progress is being made?

In that regard I consider him an early proponent of capitalism as well as the more often cited fascism.

I have to agree with him on some of his points on democracy though, the people don't exactly have a stellar record of electing parties and people on their actual merits these days, instead depending moreso on political ads, newspaper articles on scandal, and other such rot to sway them.

Democracy is only effective if the people voting are educated on who and what they're voting for, call me a pessimist, but I don't think very many people *are* aware enough when they make their decisions...

quote:

Originally posted by CortexBomb I haven't had a chance to read a lot of Nietzche, but of the stuff that I *have* read I never got the impression that he cared about the "greater good"... I think he realized that ruthless people could end up in power as a result of his beliefs, but I also think that he advocated that. The powerful man should have almost unlimited rights to do as he pleases in Nietzche's world, and so what if a few cows get stepped on along the way as long as progress is being made?

I know what you mean, but ultimately it's in everyone's interest for society to be equitable for all. Great periods of scientific advancement almost universally have come under less oppressive governments. So sure, the powerful individual might seem to be at an advantage by oppressing others, but by doing so he limits societys capacity of its own advancement, and over a long period of time, he would be better off as a less powerful member of a more advanced society than he would as the leader of a relatively primitive one.

This is a little off topic but can someone tell me where I can find some of Nietzche's work? I've heard diffrent quotes and idea's he's had, but never read a book or anything, and don't have a good idea of what he's about.

interesting thread

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

*"call me a pessimist, but I don't think very many people *are* aware enough when they make their decisions..."

Ill call you a realist.

"This is a little off topic but can someone tell me where I can find some of Nietzche's work? I've heard diffrent quotes and idea's he's had, but never read a book or anything, and don't have a good idea of what he's about."

Just check out amazon.com, read a bit reviews content) or check out you university library...wont be hard to find nitzsche stuff
*remembers that he's got that little Nietzsche book about the use of history somewhere in his room, unread and covered by clothes cd's and tissues *

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

quote:

Originally posted by Nadi This is a little off topic but can someone tell me where I can find some of Nietzche's work? I've heard diffrent quotes and idea's he's had, but never read a book or anything, and don't have a good idea of what he's about.

You can find his stuff in any philosophy section...his most well-known work is "Beyond Good and Evil" (most well-known for being an attack on Christianity), though most anything he's written is an interesting read if you pick it up with an open mind.

As I said above, I disagree with a lot of his ideas, but he still has some interesting things to say that are worth considering.

Thanks guys! my highschool library doesn't have anything on him, but I'll keep looking.