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Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Exclamation The Reality Of War

With all this rhetoric getting thrown backwards and forwards, it can be easy to forget what war is really about : wanton death and destruction. When you see the images released by the Pentagon of Laser-Guided Missiles plowing clinically into "military targets" with the precision and aesthetics of a computer game utterly detached from reality, please keep these images, taken from the first Gulf war in mind:

The True Cost of War

Then imagine these images repeated 100,000 times over in a country already decimated by regular bombings and incredible poverty. If anyone believes that the Iraqi people are going to be skipping up to their American "liberators" in Baghdad at the end of the war having had to experience these images first hand - charred, limbless friends and relatives left to die amongst the rubble of what were once their homes - you need a reality check. This is a small part of what war costs the average citizen, and doesn't even take into consideration the abhorrent conditions refugees will be forced to endure, nor the increased destruction of infrastructure and property that will make the lives of the Iraqi citizen even harder to bear.

You can form your own opinion on the war, but - regardless of your position - don't forget what, at base, it all comes down to and who suffers. These images demonstrate why the terrors of war should only ever instigated as a very last resort.


EDIT: All the photos with commentary from the original author can be accessed at this address:

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0212/pt_intro.html


___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Renegade on Mar-19-2003 at 07:06

Old Post Mar-19-2003 06:52  Australia
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klingklang77
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Registered: Nov 2002
Location: NY & Sydney&Frankfurt&Munich

NO WAR- NO WAY!!!!


___________________
Kraftwerk. Die Mensch Maschine.
John Donne "Valediction: Forbidding Mourning". Thy firmness makes my circle just, and makes me end where I begun.

Old Post Mar-19-2003 07:21 
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Mental Exodus
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Toronto, Can
Be Cool!

I agree that war is war. No matter what your doing. I also totally agree on the gulf coverage issue. Did u know that reporters who strayed from the Army and got real stories and tried to air them were really given a hard time by the CIA! Im guessing the same thing happened in Afghanistan and will repeat in Iraq. While this helps the P.R. department allot it continues to cloud the judgment of the average person who doesn’t really care about what happens but still votes. Renegade, U stated that the area has "incredible poverty" I agree with this. However. Can it not be argued that the billions of oil $$$ that Sadam pockets for himself and spends on 25 palaces and large cruise boats should be in the hands of the people and therefore gives further justification the need for US liberation? The point here is that the US apparently "intends" to help the people by remodeling the government so the $$$ will find its way into the peoples hands. People have already argued that this will not happen for many reasons but the war in the area isnt over so no one can really tell. Also it takes a very long time to reform a country. This is a problem cuz many of the people who have an opinion would like to see a turn around in a few weeks and then flame the gov for apparently lying over immediate placement of money and political spotlight.


___________________
Todays youth have desacrated music with the popification of all generes. FOR SHAME.

MUSIC GURU - 2002.

Old Post Mar-19-2003 14:31  Canada
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Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

quote:
. Did u know that reporters who strayed from the Army and got real stories and tried to air them were really given a hard time by the CIA! Im guessing the same thing happened in Afghanistan and will repeat in Iraq.


Yeah, Patrick Turnley breifly mentions it on his webpage (the second link) and I saw something about it on Fox News of all places I think it was. Basically, if you want to go down there with the soldiers and take pictures of the action, you need a "press pass" of sorts - personal identification that authorizes you to take these pictures. The journalists like Patrick Turnley, however, were made well aware that if any "unsavoury" images get back - that is, images the army/government does not want you to see - you have the press pass taken off you and are either forced to go home or, at the very least, forced away from the front lines. This expalins why we have seen so few images of the bloodshed from the the Gulf War / Afghanistan, which results in two things:

1) The public are deliberately made ignorant of much of what is occuring in these wars - namely they are being fed "propoganda" in the sense that the government dictates what they are and are not allowed to see.

2) In this state of ignorance - where no blood-shed ever makes it onto our TV screens - we are made to think that the operations are clean and precise, with bloodshed reduced to bland statistics, "collateral damage". How can we morally oppose a war when we don't properly understand what's happening?


It's worth noting that coverage of the World Trade Center tragedies (and they were tragedies) wasn't censored at all. Can you imagine people supporting the attack on Afghanistan if they had the deaths broadcast into their home? Even if we only count the reported deaths, the tally far exceeds the death tally from the WTC disaster, yet because these deaths are faceless - because we have no humane way of connecting with these "numbers" - the outpouring of sympathy is far diminished and the "public opinion" war is easily won. Take a look for yourself:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1740538.stm

Then take a look at what they have in store for Iraq this time around. Notice the terminology:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003...ain537928.shtml

quote:
On the second day, the plan calls for launching another 300 to 400 cruise missiles.

"There will not be a safe place in Baghdad," said one Pentagon official who has been briefed on the plan.

"The sheer size of this has never been seen before, never been contemplated before," the official said.


quote:
"We want them to quit. We want them not to fight," says Harlan Ullman, one of the authors of the Shock and Awe concept which relies on large numbers of precision guided weapons.

"So that you have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons at Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but in minutes," says Ullman.


quote:
"You're sitting in Baghdad and all of a sudden you're the general and 30 of your division headquarters have been wiped out. You also take the city down. By that I mean you get rid of their power, water. In 2,3,4,5 days they are physically, emotionally and psychologically exhausted," Ullman tells Martin.


Not one mention of civilian casualties. Once again the dead are relegated to meaningless numbers so that we can sit back and watch the fireworks in "awe" without that pesky moral twinge: "I wonder if this is morally right? Of course it is, it's for their own good!".

Utterly, utterly reprehensible:

http://www.friendsjournal.org/conte...il/feature.html



quote:
Renegade, U stated that the area has "incredible poverty" I agree with this. However. Can it not be argued that the billions of oil $$$ that Sadam pockets for himself and spends on 25 palaces and large cruise boats should be in the hands of the people and therefore gives further justification the need for US liberation? The point here is that the US apparently "intends" to help the people by remodeling the government so the $$$ will find its way into the peoples hands.


Partly true - Saddam Hussein is as corrupt as any other iron-fist dictator - but the sanctions placed on Iraq after the Gulf War basically destroyed Iraqs economy and even if Saddam Hussein were the most humanitarian man on the planet, he just does not have the means to feed his own people.

See here for the "myths" about Iraqi sanctions:

http://www.nonviolence.org/vitw/pag...lity_print.html

And this is a World Health Organisation report about the impact the sanctions have had on Iraqi society (it's old -1996 - but, if anything, things have gotten even worse since then):

http://www.who.int/disasters/repo/5249.html

The old "it's all Saddam's fault" line just isn't true.


___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

Old Post Mar-19-2003 15:42  Australia
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FuzzyGreen
Music Addict



Registered: May 2001
Location: Bay Area, Ca USA

Yeah, these are the realities of war. This is what a dangerous government like Saddam's regime can do to people. What an evil man to do this to people. I am so glad and honored that I live in a country where we can put a stop to suffering like this. I thank god that we have the power to put a stop to evil killers. Thank you God for my country.

Old Post Mar-19-2003 20:03  United States
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Mental Exodus
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Toronto, Can

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade

The old "it's all Saddam's fault" line just isn't true.


??? Didnt we stop trading with him because he wouldnt allow inspections and didnt follow the UN's laws? Wouldnt this make it his fault?


___________________
Todays youth have desacrated music with the popification of all generes. FOR SHAME.

MUSIC GURU - 2002.

Old Post Mar-19-2003 20:44  Canada
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tiesto14
Let The Music Play



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: The Palladium New York City

Maybe i should post pics of 9.11...of innocent people going about their daily lives in a non war time situation that where attacked....save your pictures...those where soldiers in war times.

Old Post Mar-20-2003 04:52  Bahamas
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Cyrus King
Anti NeoCon Addict



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto

Renegade has considerably prroved you wrong on a multitude of times Tiesto14. He has backed up his arguments with sources and logical explanations... where you just idiotically reply with childish remarks from that empty space between your ears.


___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

Old Post Mar-20-2003 05:14 
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tiesto14
Let The Music Play



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: The Palladium New York City

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus King
Renegade has considerably prroved you wrong on a multitude of times Tiesto14. He has backed up his arguments with sources and logical explanations... where you just idiotically reply with childish remarks from that empty space between your ears.


ok fine let me get some pics...let me show you what it looks like for busnies women and men to be attacked...in NON war times...let me show you what IIIIIIIIIIIIII saw with my OWN eyes in person...while you sat back on your fucking ass safe while i was running for my life...you shut the fuck up you scumbag...you know nothing...you dont know what its liek to be attacked...I DO....

Old Post Mar-20-2003 05:17  Bahamas
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tiesto14
Let The Music Play



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: The Palladium New York City

HERES WHAT I SAW U ******...THESE ARE INNOCENT PEOPLE IN NON WAR TIMES....I REPEAT NON NON NON NON NON WAR TIMES!!!!!


For those who jumped, the fall lasted 10 seconds. They struck the ground at just less than 150 miles per hour — not fast enough to cause unconsciousness while falling, but fast enough to ensure instant death on impact. People jumped from all four sides of the north tower. They jumped alone, in pairs and in groups.



















SHOW ME ONE MILITARY OFFICIAL OR SOLDIER...JUST ONE..THESE ARE INNOCENT PEOPLE IN NON WAR TIMES



Old Post Mar-20-2003 05:48  Bahamas
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Cyrus King
Anti NeoCon Addict



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by tiesto14
ok fine let me get some pics...let me show you what it looks like for busnies women and men to be attacked...in NON war times...let me show you what IIIIIIIIIIIIII saw with my OWN eyes in person...while you sat back on your fucking ass safe while i was running for my life...you shut the fuck up you scumbag...you know nothing...you dont know what its liek to be attacked...I DO....


First off... everytime you try and validate your points.. it always comes back to you trying to get people to feel sorry for you becuase you witnessed 9/11. I know MANY people.... including a doctor who was probably closer to the buildings than any regular individual in the city who witnessed everything from the beginning to the end.. who sat there waiting to help people but no one would come becuase they were dead. Dont think you were the only one who was affected by 9/11... the whole world was.... but rememeber... the world experiences 9/11 in different forms every single day... yet we dont hear about it.

And with me being attacked.... do you know what it feels like to live in fear for your life as bombs are being blown up outside your house.... do you know how it feels like to be in a war.... to know people who have been executed???? HAve you lived in the middeast during the Iran / IRaq war.... MILLIONS died then... and my family was affected.... so you shut the fuck up...and stop crying about 9/11.


___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

Old Post Mar-20-2003 05:48 
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tiesto14
Let The Music Play



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: The Palladium New York City

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus King
First off... everytime you try and validate your points.. it always comes back to you trying to get people to feel sorry for you becuase you witnessed 9/11. I know MANY people.... including a doctor who was probably closer to the buildings than any regular individual in the city who witnessed everything from the beginning to the end.. who sat there waiting to help people but no one would come becuase they were dead. Dont think you were the only one who was affected by 9/11... the whole world was.... but rememeber... the world experiences 9/11 in different forms every single day... yet we dont hear about it.

And with me being attacked.... do you know what it feels like to live in fear for your life as bombs are being blown up outside your house.... do you know how it feels like to be in a war.... to know people who have been executed???? HAve you lived in the middeast during the Iran / IRaq war.... MILLIONS died then... and my family was affected.... so you shut the fuck up...and stop crying about 9/11.



FUCK YOU AND YOUR FAMILY....ROT IN HELL

Old Post Mar-20-2003 05:50  Bahamas
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