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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX
Behold, my arse. Sexual Age of Consent

I was doing some reading on age of consent and age of marriage laws around the world, and I found this article:



quote:
California -- Age of Consent



PENAL CODE
SECTION 261-269


261.5. (a) Unlawful sexual intercourse is an act of sexual
intercourse accomplished with a person who is not the spouse of the
perpetrator, if the person is a minor.

For the purposes of this section, a "minor" is a person
under the age of 18 years and an "adult" is a person
who is at least 18 years of age.

(b) Any person who engages in an act of unlawful sexual
intercourse with a minor who is not more than three years
older or three years younger than the perpetrator, is
guilty of a misdemeanor.

(c) Any person who engages in an act of unlawful sexual
intercourse with a minor who is more than three years younger than
the perpetrator is guilty of either a misdemeanor or a felony, and
shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one
year, or by imprisonment in the state prison.
(d) Any person over the age of 21 years who engages in an act of
unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor who is under 16 years of age
is guilty of either a misdemeanor or a felony, and shall be punished
by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by
imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or four years.
(e) (1) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, an
adult who engages in an act of sexual intercourse with a minor in
violation of this section may be liable for civil penalties in the
following amounts:
(A) An adult who engages in an act of unlawful sexual intercourse
with a minor less than two years younger than the adult is liable for
a civil penalty not to exceed two thousand dollars ($2,000).
(B) An adult who engages in an act of unlawful sexual intercourse
with a minor at least two years younger than the adult is liable for
a civil penalty not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000).
(C) An adult who engages in an act of unlawful sexual intercourse
with a minor at least three years younger than the adult is liable
for a civil penalty not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000).
(D) An adult over the age of 21 years who engages in an act of
unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor under 16 years of age is
liable for a civil penalty not to exceed twenty-five thousand dollars
($25,000).
(2) The district attorney may bring actions to recover civil
penalties pursuant to this subdivision. From the amounts collected
for each case, an amount equal to the costs of pursuing the action
shall be deposited with the treasurer of the county in which the
judgment was entered, and the remainder shall be deposited in the
Underage Pregnancy Prevention Fund, which is hereby created in the
State Treasury. Amounts deposited in the Underage Pregnancy
Prevention Fund may be used only for the purpose of preventing
underage pregnancy upon appropriation by the Legislature.



261.6. In prosecutions under Section 261, 262, 286, 288a, or 289,
in which consent is at issue, "consent" shall be defined to mean
positive cooperation in act or attitude pursuant to an exercise of
free will. The person must act freely and voluntarily and have
knowledge of the nature of the act or transaction involved.
A current or previous dating or marital relationship shall not be
sufficient to constitute consent where consent is at issue in a
prosecution under Section 261, 262, 286, 288a, or 289.
Nothing in this section shall affect the admissibility of evidence
or the burden of proof on the issue of consent.



261.7. In prosecutions under Section 261, 262, 286, 288a, or 289,
in which consent is at issue, evidence that the victim suggested,
requested, or otherwise communicated to the defendant that the
defendant use a condom or other birth control device, without
additional evidence of consent, is not sufficient to constitute
consent.

Updates 04-2001:

From District Attorney (http://www.stanislaus-da.org/statutory_rape.htm)

What is Statutory Rape?
Statutory Rape is unlawful sexual intercourse with someone
under the age of 18.

What is Vertical Prosecution?
Vertical Prosecution means one prosecutor handling the
case from issuance to final disposition. Studies show that
when it comes to crimes of a personal and sexual nature one
attorney handling all aspects of the case, from charging
through sentencing, increases effectiveness in
understanding the dynamics of each particular case and the
needs of each victim.

Do WE PROSECUTE EVERY CASE?
No. We are evaluating each case independently to determine if
criminal charges are appropriate.

WHY SO MUCH ATTENTION TO STATUTORY RAPE?

California has the highest teen birth rate in the U.S.

Every 8 minutes, a teenager in California has a baby.

3 of 4 births to High School girls are fathered by adults.

Men over 25 account for twice as many teen births as boys under 18 years old.

The Average Age difference between the teen victim and the adult defendant in cases filed by the District
Attorney is 7years 9months.

Men over 20 are responsible for 5 times as many births among junior high school girls.

In California almost 70% of teen births are fathered by adult men.

On an average California day 76 teenage girls, 17 & younger, will give birth.

In Stanislaus County over 6% of teenage girls will give birth in any given year.

In 1993 1,572 births in California were to mothers 14 years or younger.

The rate of sexually transmitted disease among teenage girls is twice that of teenage boys.

This all translates into a tremendous drain in our welfare and medical resources statewide.

AFDC and Medi-Cal costs for 1 teen pregnancy, birth and 1st year support is $10,000.

Total costs for teen births to those 17 and younger in 1993 for California were $140 million.


WHAT CAN BE DONE?

Spread the word that all reports of statutory rape are being evaluated and in appropriate cases charges are being filed.

You can report any knowledge of Statutory Rape to local Law Enforcement or to the District Attorney's Statutory Rape Vertical Prosecution Unit.

The number of Teenage Pregnancies has declined every year in Stanislaus County since the Statutory Rape Vertical Prosecution unit was started. Since 1996, over Five Hundred and Thirty cases of Statutory Rape have been reported in Stanislaus County. Of the 530 plus cases, 95 defendants have been sentenced to County Jail or State Prison, 56 have completed the Stanislaus County Statutory Rape Diversion Program, and the remainder are awaiting processing or
have been processed in an appropriate fashion. The average age difference between the victim and the defendant in cases reported in Stanislaus County is over 6 years. The largest age difference reported since 1996 was 31 years. The Statutory Rape Vertical Prosecution Unit of the Stanislaus County District Attorney’s Office is an integral part of a concerted effort on the part of our citizens to reduce teen pregnancy.




Most US states have pretty reasonable age of consent laws (most are 16 or 17, Hawaii is even 14). California seems to be setting a new benchmark in government intrusion into people's private lives however.

It's especially disgusting how the young women are referred to as "victims." I suppose the state legislature considers reducing the state budget more important than protecting the most private of personal freedoms.

Last edited by DaveSZ on Sep-26-2003 at 13:15

Old Post Sep-14-2003 19:58 
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MrSquirrel
Auf Wiedersehen



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: In a Tree.
Re: Fuckin' in Cali

quote:
Originally posted by DaveSaenz
Most US states have pretty reasonable age of consent laws (most are 16 or 17, Hawaii is even 14). California seems to be setting a new benchmark in government intrusion into people's private lives however.

It's especially disgusting how the young women are referred to as "victims." I suppose the state legislature considers reducing the state budget more important than protecting the most private of personal freedoms.



Statutory rape is not exclusively talking about female victims, young men/boys can be victims as well. It is just that the cases of older women having sex with young boys is not prosecuted as often, nor is it necessarily bothersome in our culture.

California's laws are no more "intrusive" than the laws in other states. I read the Illinois consent law when I was in high school and it was pretty much the exact same thing. But in Illinois, you can be prosecuted if you are 17 and are having sex with someone 3 years younger.

www.ageofconsent.com has a chart of the aes of consent around the country and the rest of the world and in most cases have the actual statutes linked from there.

Just make sure you don't have sex with any 15 year olds and you will be fine

MrS


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Old Post Sep-14-2003 20:56  United Nations
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX
Re: Re: Fuckin' in Cali

quote:
Originally posted by MrSquirrel
Statutory rape is not exclusively talking about female victims, young men/boys can be victims as well. It is just that the cases of older women having sex with young boys is not prosecuted as often, nor is it necessarily bothersome in our culture.

California's laws are no more "intrusive" than the laws in other states. I read the Illinois consent law when I was in high school and it was pretty much the exact same thing. But in Illinois, you can be prosecuted if you are 17 and are having sex with someone 3 years younger.


You are right. I forgot about those cases where the woman is much older than the man (or boy).

But we both know there have been cases of two people who love each other, and they have to go through the trauma of prosecution. It just makes me sick quite frankly.

I am mostly upset about the high age of consent, and not as much the punishment, although it seems not too many people actually are put in jail because of this law. Still it feels unjust to me.

Last edited by DaveSZ on Sep-14-2003 at 21:16

Old Post Sep-14-2003 21:06 
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MrSquirrel
Auf Wiedersehen



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: In a Tree.
Re: Re: Re: Fuckin' in Cali

quote:
Originally posted by DaveSaenz
You are right. I forgot about those cases where the woman is much older than the man (or boy).

But we both know there have been cases of two people who love each other, and they have to go through the trauma of prosecution. It just makes me sick quite frankly.

I am mostly upset about the high age of consent, and not as much the punishment, although it seems not too many people actually are put in jail because of this law. Still it feels unjust to me.


I personally find the age of consent being 18 to be perfectly fine. The law does not go "hunting" for people having sex across that age line but it is there with the intent to protect those younger individuals in cases where there is some harm done (be it emotional, physical, or pregnancy related). I have not done the research on CA but I know that while the age of consent is 17 (i think it was 18 when I was in school) in IL, it is legal to become married at age 16 with parental consent. This, I believe, supercedes the age of consent law allowing older men/women to marry younger ones.

Laws in this country in general make little sense at times because they make new laws without repealing old ones or they take new provisions on old laws that are outdated etc. It is why tehre are so many lawyers. You need someone to take the time to read all that crap for you and find where the relevant info is.

How old are you Dave? Are you 20 and in love with a 16 year old?
Did her dad find out and threaten prosecution instead of the old fashioned "shotgun wedding" proposal?

Just messin with ya

MrS


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Old Post Sep-14-2003 21:32  United Nations
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rizo
rizoholic



Registered: Apr 2003
Location: sf south bay

sucks huh, especially for me i live a block away from an all girls catholic high school. i see them every weekday going to lunch in their cute little uniform

/not a pedo

Old Post Sep-15-2003 01:09 
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TuanAnh213
ahhh...Du Du Du Du Du



Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA...Cheah!!

who the hell cares...15 year old girls in my high school are still having sex and no one gives a shit...its not like a cop is gonna randomly bust into your house to see if a minor is having sex

and california rules


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Old Post Sep-15-2003 01:36  United States
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

quote:
Originally posted by rizen
sucks huh, especially for me i live a block away from an all girls catholic high school. i see them every weekday going to lunch in their cute little uniform

/not a pedo



I feel your pain.

California is a beautiful place, but that has nothing to do with it's government. The state's boundaries are just something that is invented by man.

Old Post Sep-15-2003 07:00 
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York
Re: Fuckin' in Cali

I think these are some pretty good reasons why there are age of consent laws.

quote:
Originally posted by DaveSaenz

WHY SO MUCH ATTENTION TO STATUTORY RAPE?

California has the highest teen birth rate in the U.S.

Every 8 minutes, a teenager in California has a baby.

3 of 4 births to High School girls are fathered by adults.

Men over 25 account for twice as many teen births as boys under 18 years old.

The Average Age difference between the teen victim and the adult defendant in cases filed by the District
Attorney is 7years 9months.


Men over 20 are responsible for 5 times as many births among junior high school girls.

In California almost 70% of teen births are fathered by adult men.

On an average California day 76 teenage girls, 17 & younger, will give birth.

In Stanislaus County over 6% of teenage girls will give birth in any given year.

In 1993 1,572 births in California were to mothers 14 years or younger.

The rate of sexually transmitted disease among teenage girls is twice that of teenage boys.

This all translates into a tremendous drain in our welfare and medical resources statewide.

AFDC and Medi-Cal costs for 1 teen pregnancy, birth and 1st year support is $10,000.

Total costs for teen births to those 17 and younger in 1993 for California were $140 million.


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Old Post Sep-15-2003 14:46  United States
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

I would put this in quotes, but it's too hard on the eyes:


In December of 1996, National Public Radio ran a story about a group of newly
arrived Iraqi immigrants in Lincoln, Nebraska, several of whom had been jailed
because they had married, as is the custom where they came from, 13 and 14 year
old women. They were in jail for statatory rape. There are several issues here
of import. First, the way "minors" are treated and thought of in the
dominant, christianized American culture, and second, the way that culture has
manipulated and abused the legal system to enforce their moral beliefs and
practices. There was a time in the history of America when it was legal to own
an African slave and illegal for a woman to vote. Both of these are now
embarrassments, but they were the law of the land at the time. Blacks and women
were once considered by reasonable, respected people as being mentally inferior
to caucasian males. The law merely reflected this belief. Today, it is young
people who are considered inferior. They can legally be treated in a way which
would result in assault charges between adults. They have fewer rights and
freedoms than "adults", they can and are legally manipulated and
mistreated, and they are thought to be (and generally are) unable to make
important decisions or run their own lives. Of course, a three year old is too
biologically young to take care of herself; she must have help. But twelve year
olds are something else: they don't have much life experience, but can they make
important decisions about their lives and bodies? It depends, I think, on
several factors, one of the most important being how they were raised. Africans
and women were once raised to be "inferior". They had substandard
education, virtually nonexistent opportunities, and a culture that constantly
told them they were inferior. The same is true of children today. They are often
raised to have low self-esteem, poor self-image, and to fit into an
inferior-to-adults pattern. What else should we expect of them? Children can
make choices if they're raised to honor their own boundaries, recognize and
internalize their worth as an individual, and are taught about the world and
others. These are tools they need, just like anyone else, to be a functioning
human being. And they both need and deserve these tools much earlier than they
traditionally receive them, if they get them at all. Infancy is not too young to
begin fostering this intelligent personhood. The term "child", and
certainly the word "minor", are themselves a problem. They represent a
seperate class of people who can be and are treated differently than adults.
That is, worse. I believe that in the future, young people will be much more
independent, free, and respected than they are now, and choices will be more
open, even to the youngest toddler, as long as they are not exposed to harm. But
aye, there's the rub: what is harm? To radical Pagans, disrespecting a young
person is harmful. Add sexuality to this mix, and the issue of children and
teens making their own decisions and running their own lives becomes downright
volatile. Sex is already a noxious issue in the non-Pagan culture. If it isn't
being manipulated, it's being vilified and criminalized. From a futurist
viewpoint, the controversy over gay and lesbian rights, for example, is at once
laughable, ridiculous, and offensive. I believe future generations will scoff at
such nonsense just as we scoff at the once-heated debate about whether
African-Americans and women deserved legal recognition. Yet the law in some
places in America (as of this writing) regard gays and lesbians as criminals.
Absurd! So, too, people of differing enough ages can be imprisoned for having
sex. If a 30 year old woman has mutually desired sex with a 14 year old boy, the
woman is who will end up imprisioned because the boy, simply because of his age,
is considered unable to make his own decision. And with obvious gender
descrimination, it is often the male who is charged with "statory
rape". If two 13 year olds have mutually desired sex, it's often the boy
who gets the rap. For Radical Pagans, and many in the greater Pagan community,
the keys terms are 'mutually desired' and 'harm'. All sexual activity, without
exception, must always be mutually desired. Does the 14 year old boy desire the
30 year old woman and vice versa? Do two 12 year olds desire each other? Do four
70 years olds? Harm is less clear cut. Some 12 year olds will be harmed, meaning
physically injured or psychologically scarred, even by a sexual union that they
think they desire at the time. But so will many 30 year olds. If the 12 year old
is brought up in Pagan ways, knows their boundaries, their likes and dislikes,
understands yes and no, and has the self-confidence and esteem to make their
preferences known and manifest, then they have the right to have safe sex with
anyone they choose and who also chooses them. If this seems controversial now,
its only because we're mired in an historical context which will change with
time. I believe sex between most older people and most younger people is harmful
at this time, but I think most of the harm is socio-cultural, not biological or
inherent. The determination of sexual maturity is mental and spiritual, not
chronological. But the heavy layer of Puritan Christian morality lays like a
toxic fog over the issue, even the discussion of the issue. But I should not be
so judgemental. It isn't the morals of the christianized majority I have any
objection to. They have the right to their beliefs and morals just like everyone
else in America. What must and one day will end is the abuse of the legal system
in the cause of that majority morality. Morals should never be codified into
law, neither the majority's nor a minority's. That isn't what law is for. The
law is for solving problems between persons or entities. Note that there must be
a conflict between persons serious enough for the law to step in. If two teens
are having sex and they mutually desire it, and there is no harm occurring, then
the law has no place there. It should not be wielded like a battle-axe in the
cause of whatever moral interest can successfully manipulate it. Pagans should
not be able to use law either, say in some future county where we become a
majority, to try and coerce everyone into celebrating the Sabbats, or being
skyclad, or adopting liberal sexual mores. Yet the legal system is constantly
abused in such a manner to suppress "deviate" sexual behavior. Of
course, to be sexually "deviate," "immoral,"
"perverted," or "indecent" you have to start from some moral
standard; in this case the christianized moral hedgemony which lies at the
nearly invisible center of legal right and wrong, for which dissenting citizens
may be arrested and imprisoned. This abuse of the law has occurred because, from
the founding of the Republic, religion has been legally separated off from
religious morals, so that while Religion, meaning the outer display and
trappings, of a tradition is Constitutionally protected, the morality of a
religion, if far enough away or different enough from, the christianized norm,
is unprotected and subject to legal harrassment. The farther away a religion or
individual is from the christianized norm, the more illegal they're likely to
be. Now, none of this touches ethics. Ethics, as I am using the word here, is
about the basic human rights we all share, the ones explicated in documents such
as the U.S. Constitution's Bill of Rights, and the United Nations Declaration of
Human Rights; and they're the same ones you learn in kindergarten: don't hurt
anyone else, don't rip anyone else off, respect others and yourself. Everyone's
rights extend out until they meet another, different, person. Then they stop.
This is why rape is wrong. No matter how old or young someone is, rape is rape.
It's involuntary and a crime. These are the reasons "statatory rape"
is a bankrupt, unconstitutional, and wholly false concept. It is nothing more
than an thinly disguised attempt at forcing one set of morals on others,
regardless of their own beliefs or morals. Rape is always involuntary. When both
or all parties desire the same sexual activity, it isn't rape. The minorities of
this country have often suffered under the laws of the majority, but times are
coming when there will be a gradual decrease in laws which activity discriminate
against minority moral traditions and an increase in the acceptance of diversity
and acknowldgement of diverse belief and practice. It has happened before, is
continuing today, and I think will continue into the future. Which brings us
back to the Iraqi husbands. They evidently weren't aware of the law which would
land them in jail as rapists. In their homeland, marrying (and consumating the
marriage to) early teens was common practice. It wasn't wrong. It's
"wrong" here only because the law is used to enforce Christian and
christianized values. The position of this author and of Radical Pagans in
general is that mutually desired sex between persons of any age isn't wrong,
should not be illegal, and ought to be addressed as a serious issue in hopes
that all persons, regardless of age or religious beliefs, will be free to be
sexual with anyone who they choose and who chooses them. [I would like to
acknowledge the difficulty of this issue to those who have suffered rape or
other hurtful sexual experiences in their childhood. I hope that by empowering
our kids, they can avoid what so many of us could not.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


This is why at the very least I favor a lower age of consent rather than a higher one. Who are we to judge those Iraqis for practicing their cultural traditions? Imagine how much pain and anguish it causes to couples who love each other very much, and are prosecuted because of their age difference. At one time in the USA women were married and bearing children at much younger ages than 18. Of course it was mainly because people lived half as long, but why suddenly has this anti-youth phobia surfaced? I understand the need and desire to protect children, but these laws cause perhaps more heartache than help (if abused by those in authority). I'll give you another example. My friend is 20 years old, and his girlfriend is 4 years his junior, though she may be 17 (Texas' age of consent) now I'm not sure. He met her when they were both still in high school, and they've been together for 2 and 1/2 years. Why shouldn't they be allowed to have sex under the law? She's a very level-headed young woman, and I'm sure she is capable of making her own decisions regarding something as sacred as her body.


This anti-youth culture has infected many other policies in the US as well. Another example of which are "teen curfews." In many US cities if you're under a certain age you aren't even allowed to be outside after midnight etc. I started working when I was 16 years old, and in Austin there's a law that says if you're under 17 you can't be out on the streets past midnight. I often had to work past midnight, so I was essentially breaking the law. Young people are easily discriminated against because they are politically very weak, and are among the demographic least likely to put up a fight to protect their freedoms. Personally I find this a disturbing trend. From a young person's perspective, there are many more "free" countries to grow up in. The word "minor" I tend to find particularly offensive.


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Last edited by DaveSZ on Sep-26-2003 at 13:46

Old Post Sep-26-2003 13:16 
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

quote:
Statutory rape raises questions
From: (http://www.beloitdailynews.com/100/6wis24.htm)
Permanent archive to prevent news article loss

MADISON, Wis. (AP) _ A 14-year-old mother who began having sex with a 16-year-old boyfriend when she was 12 calls it
unfair to charge him with statutory rape.

As part of a campaign by Dane County authorities against statutory rape, the teen-ager was sentenced to three months in
custody and was ordered to have no contact with the girl. She says authorities should take into consideration what she calls the maturity level of the individuals. District Attorney Diane Nicks received a $93,000 state grant last February to prosecute cases of statutory rape. When the grant expires in June, Nicks said she hopes to have a model policy in place that could change the way statutory rape is prosecuted in Wisconsin.

She said she is concerned about relationships in which one person is significantly older than a minor. Nicks questions whether consent is freely given in such cases because of the possibility an older person can manipulate an adolescent. She generally does not prosecute cases where both people are at least 13 and the difference in their ages is three years or less, she said.

With the state funding, Nicks has hired two people to work exclusively on such cases, educate the public on the law and
develop recommendations for prosecuting cases. Some advocates for young women say they are wary of a new statutory rape policy. Deirdre Green, a youth specialist for the Rape Crisis Center, said some of the sexually active girls she counsels feel doubly violated when their lovers are prosecuted.

``Girls see this sexualized society where you're supposed to talk sexy but not have sex,'' Green said. ``If you move the age up
to a 24-year-old and an 18-year-old, society wouldn't have a problem with it.''

The cases are difficult because young people involved in statutory rape cases typically do not perceive themselves as victims,
prosecutors and victims' advocates say. ``Everybody hates these cases,'' said Sandra Nowack, an assistant state attorney general who is heading the prosecution program. ``How do you deal with a teen-ager who doesn't see herself as a victim?''

Teen-age sex can confuse young people's emotional development, causing them to engage in risky behavior, psychologists say.
That can lead to teen-age pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases. There has been a steady increase in the prosecutions of statutory rape across Wisconsin, Nicks said. But many still consider it a victimless crime, she said.

Steven C. Christopher, 22, was sentenced to more than two years in prison after being convicted of statutory rape for having
sex with two girls, ages 13 and 15. Both said they willingly participated. Christopher's mother and grandmother wrote letters to Dane County Circuit Judge William Foust, complaining that the girls should share some of the blame because they aggressively pursued him.

``With girls being as promiscuous as they are today, the parents are going to have to start taking some of the blame,'' said Carol Parks, Christopher's grandmother. ``If you rape them, that's a different story. If she comes to you, both people should be held accountable.''



I find the first case mentioned to clearly be a case based on age discrimination.


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Old Post Oct-16-2003 04:43 
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Geckos
tranceaddict in training



Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Sydney
Dog Running

Statutory rape is as the name implies... not a charge of behaviour but one of law. In this day and age the term rape as it appears in the above is a gross mis-representation. The law considers it illegal but the term rape implies non-consenting sex. Consenting minor's do not fall into this category and should not be prosecuted under barbaric rules that were meant to outlaw a specific problem. In its day the law would have been reasonable to the standards of society but today the implications mean it is seriously in need of a complete review to maintain its intended effects. These effects being to protect minors from preying adults.

The unfortunate side effects are outlined in the case above. The problem with the current democratic political systems is there are no politicians who will challenge it unless their are votes involved. The only way to get it changed is by legislature and that requires lobbying, organisation, influence or the media. In a quasi-dictatorial society, injustices like this can be changed quickly but then it's not really a society either you or I want to live in. While the law is not fair in is present form, it takes time to make it change. To coin a phrase... "You cant have your cake and eat it too."

Seriously though, if you ask Arnie maybe he can terminate it for you. If you can get him on-side, he is probably the only one in a position to act with any influence in a short time frame because of his popularity. Changes that are not popular with the people are always done soon after an election. When he is halfway through term forget about him doing anything that would seriously threaten his political position. As it would only be an amendment to existing legislation it might not be such a bad idea.

Food for thought

Geckos

Old Post Oct-20-2003 21:56  Australia
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