Hi people, can you enlighten me on this:

which type of needle harms the least your records when scratching - the spherical or the elliptical?
I've asked around and some people tell me the S, other the E... is there any definite answer?

Hi borron,

the elliptical-type styli will harm the records more for scratching. If you are using them for normal play however, rather than scratching, they will not harm the records any more than spherical styli.

However, elliptical styli will track better and will be less likely to jump out of the groove. Elliptical styli also give better sound quality and reproduce high frequencies better than spherical, due to the elliptical tip being able to reach further down into the groove.

elliptical styli will actually wear your records less then a spherical record. this is due to the fact that the pressure is distributed over a greater area therefore the weight per square inch is reduced. with a spherical stylus all the weight is focused on a much smaller spot so it wears into the groove quicker. cheers.

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quote:

Originally posted by DJTJ Hi borron, the elliptical-type styli will harm the records more for scratching. If you are using them for normal play however, rather than scratching, they will not harm the records any more than spherical styli. However, elliptical styli will track better and will be less likely to jump out of the groove. Elliptical styli also give better sound quality and reproduce high frequencies better than spherical, due to the elliptical tip being able to reach further down into the groove.

second dat

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When you start to criticize the times you live in, your time is over. ~Karl Lagerfeld

Alright there's a lot of misinformation here


Elliptical
Better sound quality
Less wear on vinyl
Poor traction

Spherical
More wear on vinyl
Worse sound quality
Better traction
Cheaper

quote:

Originally posted by Scottaculous Alright there's a lot of misinformation here

no one posted any misinformation.

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quote:

Originally posted by VIO no one posted any misinformation.

quote:

Originally posted by DJTJ the elliptical-type styli will harm the records more for scratching. If you are using them for normal play however, rather than scratching, they will not harm the records any more than spherical styli. However, elliptical styli will track better and will be less likely to jump out of the groove.

quote:

Originally posted by Scottaculous

I understand the situation with a larger surface area touching the record meaning less pressure and therefore less wear with elliptical styli, but is it not true that this is the case for forward play? Due to the shape and the angle the needle goes into the groove, will it not wear more when reversing (i.e. during scratching)?

Maybe i was the one who didn't post enough information!
I'm not a scratch dj, actually i'm starting now to play with turntables (coming from cdj's) so i'm a complete begginer.
I play progressive trance, house and psychedelic trance.

I decided to change from cd's to vinyl because of scratching... so i will use a lot of scratching. But of course, that "a lot" i will use will not compare to hip-hip or scratch dj's, because you can't abuse scratching when playing the style of music i like to play. But as a begginer, i will sure abuse the scratch (in the learning period at least).

So what do you people reccomend? Spherical or Elliptical?
Maybe spherical in the beggining and then elliptical? Please enlighten me!

If you are not going to be doing much scratching, then I would definitely reccommend elliptical needles. They will wear the records less for normal play.

If you are learning scratching, then perhaps it might not be the best idea to use expensive needles like Nightclub E's for practising/learning. You should consider buying a set of decent needles for mixing (i.e. the Nightclubs) and a cheap set (maybe some Stanton AL500's) for practising your scratching. It is easy to damage needles when scratching, especially if you don't know what you're doing, due to the forceful movements and the extra weight you will need on the tonearm to keep the needle from skipping.

quote:

Originally posted by DJTJ the elliptical-type styli will harm the records more for scratching. If you are using them for normal play however, rather than scratching, they will not harm the records any more than spherical styli. However, elliptical styli will track better and will be less likely to jump out of the groove.

actually Scottaculous, djtj is absolutly correct in his post. during normal cueing and play an elliptical stylus will stick in the groove, track better and wear your records less. during intense scratching the elliptical stylus will hold better and wear your records less. you can call stanton or shure and ask them, they'll tell you the same thing. cheers.

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There's definately no consensus here. This is an excerpt from needlz.com (aka Shure, they make it)

-Spherical - The diamond is shaped like an upside down traffic cone. The front view and side view are equal. Spherical diamonds have the largest surface contact with the record groove, resulting in lower pressure per square inch, lower record wear, and acceptance of heavier tracking forces.

- Elliptical - The diamond is shaped like an oval traffic cone. The front view is 3 times wider than the side view. Elliptical diamonds have smaller surface contact and higher pressure per square inch. Elliptical diamonds yield more accurate high frequency response, but are NOT suitable for scratching.

Which in my opinion is partly wrong, because the elliptical one has more contact surface for sure.

There have been numerous discussions about this topic, and nobody ever came to a conclusion (just read this : http://www.futureproducers.com/foru...&threadid=18587 )

My opinion on this is, most explanations you find are relevant to record playback.

An elliptical needle tracks better in normal play, but it's worse than sphericals with back cueing. Looked from above, an elliptical needle really doesn't look like a perfect "american football", but more like a rounded triangle (it's not as "pointy" at the back side. That is why in scratch or heavy duty backcue applications sphericals are preferred (and they fact they cost less to produce also of course). The best scratch needles are still spherical. This is why I also say, an elliptical needle produces less wear in regular use, but in scratch/back cue applications to have the same performance as sphericals, you need more weight, which results in more wear.
The problem is, not only the shape is to be taken into account. Also the mass, which will cause inertia (and that will cause skipping) and the cantilever system. No point in saying that the cantilever on a Shure M44-7 is the most exemplary part of all.

We all agree on one fact, elliptical sound better. The general consensus still stands as : if you are mainly mixing, and sound quality primes, go elliptical. If you're scratching, go spherical.
Really you shouldn't think there is a world of difference in the record wear. It's not like it practically destroys your records. In the long long long term you might notice a difference.

What you shouldn't do though, and causes massive wear, is constantly switching between two "models". When you play with a certain needle, the groove is slowly shaped (as the vinyl is rather soft, the needle warms the vinyl and shapes/scrapes material from the groove walls). This is a natural process. If you suddenly change from one method to another, the groove that was shaped to a certain point will totally be "off" to the new stylus shape. And that one will really eat up your records then.
It's ok to use spherical for normal play, and use elliptical for recording, as it's just a momentary pass. But definately don't constantly switch from one to another (like play 6 months with S, then 6 months with E, then S again, etc...) cuz that will destroy your records.

I definately encourage you to read that long discussion on Futureproducers I posted in this reply. Shows you that after long discussions, with very valid points on both sides, there is still no conclusion...