Comedian Dennis Miller:

"The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. . . . Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no 'Palestinians' then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no 'Palestinians' then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the 'Palestinians,' weeping for their deep bond with their lost 'land' and 'nation.'"

Good food for discussion if I may say so!

Last edited by jp on Nov-19-2002 at 17:37

Ya I wrote something like this too a while back!;

You will here this a lot that Palestinians are a ‘People’. That the Jews and Palestinians are two people over one land. And this is where the conflict derives from. This is a very nice argument. But the correct reasoning for it would then have to be One People one Land. Ok so who are a people?

The Israelis are a people. They are Jews. They share an ethnical, religion, and historical background that spans more then 6000 years. They are indeed one of the most united oldest ethnical groups still on earth. Their claim for the territory of Israel are rationalized by their Historical significance to the people (forget about the god given right, you dig 5ft and you find an old Israeli castle/fort) and the fact that the land had belonged to the British before it became in independent nation. Britain got the land from the Ottomans under the Paris Peace Treaty with the responsibility that they get it only if they follow the Balfour declaration, which basically says the only reason Britain gets this land anyway is so it could setup a Jewish homeland on it.

Ok now the Palestinians…. Hmm what are they? A peoples? Why what brings them together. Not all Arabs in Israel are Palestinians... after all you still have over a million content and happy Arab Israelis… which means Israeli citizens (or Arabs living in Israel with full rights) that are Arab. Ok so that rules out ethnicity, how about religion? No they seem to be primarily Christian and Muslims… hmm ok were running out of things, lets see Historical? No, they are just basically Arabs that got to this land during the British mandate from lots of different places with no real same history. And those that were there before have different histories as well. Ok ok.. I know the Palestinians must know what they are.. let me go check what they say about themselves. This is from the Palestinian Liberation Organization (read Arafat’s government) charter (read constitution):

quote:

Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Right so Palestinians are Arab. We got that one down already.. but not all Arab’s are Palestinians so this doesn’t work.
I love the bit about the Arab nation though. I wish I knew where the Arab nation is... I can’t find it on my map and I've been looking for hours.

Lets read on;

quote:

Article 4: The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from parents to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.

Well behind all that Zionist Evil Occupier rhetoric we see some requirements for ‘membership’ in the ‘Palestinian people’ organization, which they assure me is a Genuine, 100% authentic Identity and essential. Ok I can get membership by being transmitted as a child to a parent. Ok good and I see that despite the fact that I fled my home in order to avoid the crossfire between that of the Evil Zionist Occupier and my ‘Arab Nations’ armies when they tried to get all those damn jews to the sea does not disqualify me from joining up. That's great news for me! I thought I almost lost being a 100% genuine member because of that. OK finally we find it though;

quote:

The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.

Ahhhh so that explains it. You have to be or know someone who lived in the Brisith Mandate before 1947!

This is cool, if things work like this I will tell my brother in Rhode Island (its near Jersey) to state that everyone who lived in the mandate of Rhode Island from Jan 1, 1956 to Jul 26, 1956 is part of the NeoRhodian people who have a legitimate right to self determination which is 100% authentic genuine and essential, and therefore can nullify that damn constitution and the evil occupation of those Imperialist Capitalist.. no Socialists.. no wait Colonist!!! I’m not making much sense here am I? Exactly my point.. they don’t seem to be either.

Ok so using that argument we have to say goodbye Palestinians, accept living in the peace loving democracy that Israel aspires to, or move.

Last edited by Yoepus on Nov-19-2002 at 18:45

i'm gonna make your LONG post shorter by resuming it into this : why don't you just say that israelians are humans and palestinians are animals ?

it's gonna save you all those lines and paragraphs you wrote , sorry but you really really offended me and i don't even wanna bother to quote the specific parts.

even some of the facts you stated are totally FALSE such as arabs living in israel "with full rights" or saying they are living "happily" , are you kidding me ? aren't they treated as second-zone citizens ?

as long as there are extremist people thinking the way you do , i don't think there can be peace.

___________________
"A style that's impossible to define. Prog? Hardly. Tech house? Not boring enough. It's like trippy twisted acid house but deep and funky. See, I told you - impossible."

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 i'm gonna make your LONG post shorter by resuming it into this : why don't you just say that israelians are humans and palestinians are animals ? it's gonna save you all those lines and paragraphs you wrote , sorry but you really really offended me and i don't even wanna bother to quote the specific parts.

no where did he say the palestinians are animals, or even talked down about them. he just justified that the term palestinian is very vague at best and that it is hard to classify exactly who is a palestinian. sorry you got offended but i dont see where it is coming from

quote:

even some of the facts you stated are totally FALSE such as arabs living in israel "with full rights" or saying they are living "happily" , are you kidding me ? aren't they treated as second-zone citizens ? as long as there are extremist people thinking the way you do , i don't think there can be peace.

mind out pointing out exactly what facts are false? surely not that there are arabs living happily in israel, of course not they all despise the government and are dying to move to neighbouring arab countries
he did not say all arabs are living happily, but you cant say that there arent those who are happy. what about my friend who i worked with for egged bus company from dalyat el karmel, an arab, who is proud to be an israeli citizen, what about my middle school field trip where we spent the day with arabs from a nazareth school... those i asked told me they were happy to be in israel.
second class citizens? come on, there are laws agianst discrimination and such, break the law - you go to jail. gimme some proof of that stuff.


also on the same kind of note i was wondering why jerusalem was so holy to muslims. i know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites."

not true. in fact, the Koran says nothing about jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. it never mentions jerusalem. so how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam? muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection with jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. meanwhile, jews can trace their roots in jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 i'm gonna make your LONG post shorter by resuming it into this : why don't you just say that israelians are humans and palestinians are animals ?

You can misquote or misinterpert anyway you like, but I think the conclusion should have been fairly obvious: Israelis are a peoples, Palestinians are not a peoples. Obviously both are humans, and regardless of this status I do believe as a final resolute some form of Palestinian state to be made in negotiations. The arguments made were a humorful attempt to prove the above point.

quote:

it's gonna save you all those lines and paragraphs you wrote , sorry but you really really offended me and i don't even wanna bother to quote the specific parts.

The truth can hurt sometimes. I never said the palestinians were animals, or should be treated as such in the article. I do have sympathy towards them... but regardless they are not a real "peoples" as I believe I have proven.

quote:

even some of the facts you stated are totally FALSE such as arabs living in israel "with full rights" or saying they are living "happily" , are you kidding me ? aren't they treated as second-zone citizens ?

Ok not this I can not tolerate... critisim on interpertation is one thing, but crisitism on facts (unless I do indeed sometimes get them wrong).. well I must counter it to prove to you that these facts are not indeed wrong:

Israel is one of the most open societies in the world, out of a population of about 6.3 million (945,000 Muslims 130,000 Christians and 100,000 Druze).

Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote (and men for that matter.. after all most the middle east is still dictatorships). Arabs currently hold 10 (or 9 or something like that) seats in the Israeli Knesset (Parliment/Congress). Ariel Sharon's cabinet includes the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a druze who serves as a minister without portfolio.

Arabic, like Hebrew is an official language in Israel. More then 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. Contrast this to the time of Israel's founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Torady there are hundreds of Arab schools.

The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethern. Neverthless Arabs can volunteer to serve, and some do indeed serve military duty.

So from a legal stand point their is no difference. One can not discriminate against you in Israel because you are an Arab in a job, you have equal protections under the law, you can not be arbitrarely arrested and so forth. This in itself, the fact of due process in Israel and that it extends to Arabs as of all it's citizens should make them 'happier' them those who live in other Arab nations with no such rights.

Of course their is discrimination against them in Israeli society. But please put it in context, remember for instance that the United States has been independent for 226 years and still has not intergrated all its diverse communities. Even today, nearly 40 years after civil rights legislation was adopted, discrimination has not been eradicated. It should not be suprising that Israel has not solved all of its social problems in only 54 years.

Now as for 'happier', I derive this from looking at the average wages of an arab man in Israel, and compare this to an average wage of an arab man in the mid-east and you will see that the Arab man in Israel, should be indeed much happier. They live at much higher standard levels, then their brethren elsewhere in many countries of the Arab world.

Last edited by Yoepus on Nov-20-2002 at 02:26

I think Yoepus has valid arguements with support as such.

fastmp3 if you're going to just bitch then don't hit the reply button; you waste everyone's time.
Give some support for your arguement or don't waste our time.

Life is full of critics and lacking in producers...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Last edited by Fir3start3r on Nov-20-2002 at 11:30

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 as long as there are extremist people thinking the way you do , i don't think there can be peace.

and as long as there are tards who mis-interpret statements like the way you did, i dont think there can be peace either.

___________________
c o n : f u s e d

quote:

Originally posted by sifntj0r and as long as there are tards who mis-interpret statements like the way you did, i dont think there can be peace either.

mis-interpreting statements is hardly important on the list holding peace back dipshit

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The discussion of whether Palestinians are peoples or not is nothing new and nevertheless totally ireelevant. First of all theres no objective criteria to judge whether a group of people forms a peoples or not. Theres probably no general definition other than "a group of people sharing xyz". In the case of the Palestinians neither a unique language nor culture or long history is shared. The only thing that would make them a people is the shared home-lessness. One could say that beginning with 1948 (or 67?) the "Palestinians" defined themselves as such due to their status of People Without Country. Many of those "PWC" live in Jordan(ehr..actually a contradiction) some in refugee camps in Lebynon syria and egypt, some absorbed into Israeli society without the attempt to adjust themselves though.
Ahr..whats my point now
Oh I know! The discussion is interesting in theory but will not contribute at ALL to a solutioin of the conflict. Even right-wing Israeli politicians accept the fact of the "palestinians". it would be stupid not to do so. You cant convince million of people that they're "actually just a bunch of Arabs who adopted a faked identity to get a state". Its not that simple, not at all. Personally I have accepted the Palestinians as a peoples cause it's avtually the most pragmatic way to solve the conflict. Provided that the Palestinian Leadership really claims the territories occupied in 1967, only, the "two staes for two peoples" would be an excellent way out of the hundred year long war. Today's leadership however wants more, though. Thereby actually contradicting the "Plaestinian" identity they adapted. So basically the "palestinian" peoples-"trick" or fact can be very useful but on the other hand also misused as a step (set by the other Arab nations who wanna get rid of the refugees?!)toward's Israel's destruction.

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant The discussion of whether Palestinians are peoples or not is nothing new and nevertheless totally ireelevant. .....

Altought your definition of who a Palestinian is, is not that of the offical PLO, and perhaps contradictory in many senses. I do agree with the above statement though.

It is sort of irrelevant, since it does not change the facts of the ground. But it does help, if say many people across the world were to hold the belief the palestinians were not a people, you could come across more unique and perhaps permant solutions.

Such as Jordan taking soverighnty over the west bank, and Egypt over Gaza. These countries both have the infastructure and utility to fight terrorism, if they so chose in these areas as well, and are commited (and honor) peace with Israel by treaty.

Discussion at it's best!

i gotta say i'm very deceived by the reaction of some of you , all i did was expressing the feeling i had (without any bad intention) after reading the first posts and now i am accused of "just bitching"

and i still believe that saying palestinians are not a people is just irrevelant , because they do share cultural , ethnical , religious , and historical background more than jews . back in the '50s the only thing a spharadi and an askhenazi have in common is the religion , and nothing else since each community has been living in a different part of the world for thousands of year , which means each one created it's own culture.

and finally if you don't want me to participate in a debate anymore just tell it to me , but as long as i feel there is an injustice or a false fact i won't stop myself to denonciate it.

just my 2cents

___________________
"A style that's impossible to define. Prog? Hardly. Tech house? Not boring enough. It's like trippy twisted acid house but deep and funky. See, I told you - impossible."