True and sad.

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the article is inane, what will it achieve other than further damage the IDF's reputation around the world? Carpet bombing some refugee camp is not the solution

Typical american attitude, full of bluster. The empty vessel makes the most noise.

What I find interesting is the logical flaws in the arguments used.

Argument 1. Israel is being so moderate, if it was good old Uncle Sam we would have carpet bombed them.

Now the flaws in this argument are that firstly Israel is moderate, if the israelis could kill every palestinian they even suspected of being a terrorist, sympathiser, or fellow traveller they could but carpet bombing is not a viable option for Israel because of international public opinion. That plus the carpet bombing might hit a settlement. Secondly Israel has actually thoroughly bombed civilian targets in the past to gain "peace". I specifically refer to the bombing of Beirut during the Israeli invasion. It didnt help Israel then.

quote:

The various hypocrites arguing in The Hague against the building of the security fence are similar to those who condemned the Czechs 65 years ago for getting in Hitler's way," he said.

Argument 2. That bullies only understand one language, there is no point in compromise.

Now this is a historical absurdity, what does he mean, that the Israelis are the equivalent of the Czechs, weak and defenceless. Israel has from recollection the highest per capita military spending in the world, a vast arsenal of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons sufficient to turn the Middle East into a smoking ruin and it is weak?

Isnt it ironic that the Israelis condemn the Palestinians for violence, claiming that the Palestinians dont want to use peaceful means to get what they want.

Well here they are in the Hague trying to get what they want ( the removal of the wall) through a non-violent means, using the legal process of the Hague Court and they are condemned for it. Almost all the major states have put submission opposing the right of the Palestinians to present their claim, to use legal phraseology they oppose the palestinians "standing to sue". And what will happen at the end of this. The Hague Court will almost undoubtedly rule that the wall is in breach of international law. So what will happen after the ruling? Nothing. Israel wont dismantle the wall, it will just ignore the ruling. The Israelis have such pure and utter contempt for law and justice that they have boycotted even appearing in the Hague. That is the equivalent of spitting in someones face.

Which clearly says to the Palestinians "there is no point trying to get what you want through legal means, we are going to do what we want, because we CAN do whatever we want" And why do the Israelis think that way? Because they have all those nuclear, biological, chemical and conventional weapons. The Israelis will never have to abandon its settlements or its wall because its military ensures that they dont have to. Which in turn justifies the logic of Hamas and Islamic Jihad who will say "look we told you so, Israel only understands one thing, you cant negotiate seriously with Israel"

To quote one Israeli peace negotiator "You can have peace or justice but you cant have both". And with that sort of attitude, Israel guarantees that it will never have peace.

If the international community had even a modicum of basic human decency their would be sanctions against Israel. They are no better than the South Africans during the apartheid era and they deserve the same response.

"The strong do what they can, the weak do what they must" Thucydides

quote:

Originally posted by VanFleet http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...d=1077423458175 NY congressman at terror site: 'We would be using B-52 bombers' Etgar Lefkovits Feb. 22, 2004 A visiting American congressman said Sunday that had any other country in the world faced the onslaught of Palestinian suicide bombings that have rocked Israel over the last three years they would be "carpet bombing" the Palestinian territories. "If any country in the world would be attacked the way Israel is they would be carpet-bombing the Palestinian territories," said Rep. Jerrold Nadler (Dem.-NY) Nadler said. "If this was America that was attacked we would be using B-52 bombers." The New York Congressman, who visited the site of Sunday's Jerusalem bombing, blasted those who condemned Israel's construction of a security barrier, which zigzgas in and around the West Bank, and is meant to prevent suicide bombers from entering the country. "The various hypocrites arguing in The Hague against the building of the security fence are similar to those who condemned the Czechs 65 years ago for getting in Hitler's way," he said. Sunday's bombing, which killed at least eight bus passengers and was the 110th Palestinian suicide bombing in three and a half years of violence, only underscores the world's hypocrisy, Nadler said. "Israel is being put in the dock for taking mild defensive measures against terrorism," he said. "Arguments are being made that the fence inconveniences Palestinians — and I'm sure it does — but they ought to blame their own leaders." "As long as this wave of terror continues, Palestinians do not have any standing about where the fence goes," he said.

While his statement about carpet-bombing doesn't seem to take into account the idea of the whole Palestinian-Israeli historical conflict I believe that as far as the fence, wall, barrier whatever you want to call it goes, from the Israeli perspective if it means saving human life then why should anything else take presidence over that. If you have lost your wife, son, daughter parents the last thing you care about is "the horrors of the fence" While some argue that Israel doesn't have to stick to the 1967 borders I wish they would to give more credence to the fence, if they did that I would not have as much problem with it. Until both sides have matured enough to talk and not kill and dismember each other through air strikes, incursions and suicide bombings then the wall is the lesser of all considered evils now available. That is sad but true because they obviously cannot talk to each other.

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quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan While his statement about carpet-bombing doesn't seem to take into account the idea of the whole Palestinian-Israeli historical conflict I believe that as far as the fence, wall, barrier whatever you want to call it goes, from the Israeli perspective if it means saving human life then why should anything else take presidence over that. If you have lost your wife, son, daughter parents the last thing you care about is "the horrors of the fence" While some argue that Israel doesn't have to stick to the 1967 borders I wish they would to give more credence to the fence, if they did that I would not have as much problem with it. Until both sides have matured enough to talk and not kill and dismember each other through air strikes, incursions and suicide bombings then the wall is the lesser of all considered evils now available. That is sad but true because they obviously cannot talk to each other.

Look at it from the Palestine side. If you have lost your wife, son, daughter, parents due to Isreali occupation and massacres, the last thing you want to worry about are the horrors of the fence. But guess what, it is a reality.
The wall is going to be a huge evil in the future if it ever gets completly built, and God forbide it does.

And comparing Isreal to those that tried to stop Hitler?!?!?! I'm not even going to dignify this with a retort. The pure ignorance pouring out of that state meant is unglaublich.

quote:

Originally posted by priveye03 And comparing Isreal to those that tried to stop Hitler?!?!?! I'm not even going to dignify this with a retort. The pure ignorance pouring out of that state meant is unglaublich.

I can say the same with you making this very stupid comment...

quote:

...If you have lost your wife, son, daughter, parents due to Isreali occupation and massacres...

First and foremost, massacres?????!!!! Show me your fuckin massacres! Click on the video in my sig. - THATS A FUCKING MASSACRE!
When the Israeli Military goes in to root out these fucking dirty scums of the earth terror monkeys, they aren't there to kill every woman and child they see; the same can't be said for the Palestinian side!

Get your brain in proper thinking condition before coming here accusing Israel of such bullshit! I wish your fuckin country would get blown to shit by these Islamic extremists.... we'll see how sympathetic to their false cause you'd be!

If the "Palestinians" put down their weapons and bomb-belts, there would be no more violence; If Israel put down their weapons, there would be no more Israel!


One very intelligent Women comes to my head in this time of tragedy when Israeli civilians are being maimed for being born Jewish, a lady who did a lot for Israel during her time in service in the government - in 1969 she became only the second woman in the world to become a prime minister, and the fourth and only female Israeli prime minister. Golda Mier, Mother of Modern Israel (as some like to call her) was known for her intelligent remarks and comments and insight amongst other things. I hope pray that she’s watching over us and our house of Israel.
Golda Mier 1898-1978
"We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon - no alternative"
"We don't thrive on military acts. We do them because we have to, and thank God we are efficient"
"We do not rejoice in victories. We rejoice when a new kind of cotton is grown and when strawberries bloom in Israel"
"The Soviet government is the most realistic regime in the world - no ideals"
"The Egyptians could run to Egypt, the Syrians into Syria. The only place we could run was into the sea, and before we did that we might as well fight"
"One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present"
"Let me tell you something that we Israelis have against Moses. He took us 40 years through the desert in order to bring us to the one spot in the Middle East that has no oil!"
"It is true we have won all our wars, but we have paid for them. We don't want victories anymore."
"I never did anything alone. Whatever was accomplished in this country was accomplished collectively"
"When they [the Arabs] love their children more than they hate us, only then will we have a true plan towards peace"
Arab sovereignty in Jerusalem just cannot be. This city will not be divided-not half and half, not 60-40, not 75-25, nothing.

Above all, this country is our own. Nobody has to get up in the morning and worry what his neighbours think of him. Being a Jew is no problem here.

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quote:

Originally posted by rupert Typical american attitude, full of bluster. The empty vessel makes the most noise. What I find interesting is the logical flaws in the arguments used. Now this is a historical absurdity, what does he mean, that the Israelis are the equivalent of the Czechs, weak and defenceless. Israel has from recollection the highest per capita military spending in the world

Two fallacies that demonstate your incompetence:

One, the article is not comapring Israel to Czechoslovakia, it is comparing the critics of Israel's secuirty fence (such as yourself) to the same type of people who before WWII critized the Czechs for making an international fuss when the Germans brought their tanks over the line.

Two, North Korea spends more then 33% of GDP on defense spending, by far more then Israel.
proof: N. Korea: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...n.html#Military

Israel: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...s.html#Military

As for the rest of your comments, they are your opinion so I don't think I will comment on them. However, one must be fully capable of the legal reasoning why Israel pulled out of the court, and why at all such a case has come to there (it violates no international laws and some, like yourself who argue this is apratheid must conceed that this is then a civil matter not in the realm of the international law). Just like Apartheid in SA wasn't 'illegal', and the international community did not try SA in any international court (as they would have no jursidiction in doing so), and as such leaving them with the only recourse of sanction. If this case is as bad as that one, then why is Israel being treated differently? This should have never entered the court in the first place...

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