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Originally posted by Shakka Just a brief blurb, a quote that captures a lot of what I think is wrong with some current leftist thinking. Obviously, it's just the tip of the iceberg, but it's a good starting point. Amen.

Are you libertarian Shakka? Lately, I've been pissed off at both the republicans and the democrats. If you think about it, Bush has been more Clinton-esque with his nation-building and big government than Clinton ever was. Personally, I think the CATO institute summarized my political beliefs quite well:

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How to Label Cato Today, those who subscribe to the principles of the American Revolution--individual liberty, limited government, the free market, and the rule of law--call themselves by a variety of terms, including conservative, libertarian, classical liberal, and liberal. We see problems with all of those terms. "Conservative" smacks of an unwillingness to change, of a desire to preserve the status quo. Only in America do people seem to refer to free-market capitalism--the most progressive, dynamic, and ever-changing system the world has ever known--as conservative. Additionally, many contemporary American conservatives favor state intervention in some areas, most notably in trade and into our private lives. "Classical liberal" is a bit closer to the mark, but the word "classical" connotes a backward-looking philosophy. Finally, "liberal" may well be the perfect word in most of the world--the liberals in societies from China to Iran to South Africa to Argentina are supporters of human rights and free markets--but its meaning has clearly been corrupted by contemporary American liberals. The Jeffersonian philosophy that animates Cato's work has increasingly come to be called "libertarianism" or "market liberalism." It combines an appreciation for entrepreneurship, the market process, and lower taxes with strict respect for civil liberties and skepticism about the benefits of both the welfare state and foreign military adventurism. The market-liberal vision brings the wisdom of the American Founders to bear on the problems of today. As did the Founders, it looks to the future with optimism and excitement, eager to discover what great things women and men will do in the coming century. Market liberals appreciate the complexity of a great society, they recognize that socialism and government planning are just too clumsy for the modern world. It is--or used to be--the conventional wisdom that a more complex society needs more government, but the truth is just the opposite. The simpler the society, the less damage government planning does. Planning is cumbersome in an agricultural society, costly in an industrial economy, and impossible in the information age. Today collectivism and planning are outmoded and backward, a drag on social progress. Market liberals have a cosmopolitan, inclusive vision for society. We reject the bashing of gays, Japan, rich people, and immigrants that contemporary liberals and conservatives seem to think addresses society's problems. We applaud the liberation of blacks and women from the statist restrictions that for so long kept them out of the economic mainstream. Our greatest challenge today is to extend the promise of political freedom and economic opportunity to those who are still denied it, in our own country and around the world.

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Isn't everybody a libertarian?

Interesting article. I also appreciate a lot about the Objectivist philosophy.

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Originally posted by Shakka Isn't everybody a libertarian? Interesting article. I also appreciate a lot about the Objectivist philosophy.

No ... the dems want a social welfare government and the repubs want to intrude on our right to privacy ... among with a million other things that I find at fault with both parties. Actually the CATO institute is a somewhat conservative libertarian think tank which should be somewhat attractive to more repubs.

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I was joking--there's a saying that everyone is a libertarian because many people try to label themselves as one to avoid being labeled a Dem or Repub. "Are you a democrat or a republican?" "Neither, I'm a Libertarian." Many times saying it blindly without knowing what it really means. I would definitely say that I believe in a lot of the conservative mindset, but I don't believe in 'no change to the status quo' as I actually think that's a misconception about what Conservatives really are. Either way, I have my beliefs, I think they are well founded, and I don't find that I have to stray from my beliefs to rationalize anything, which serves to increase my convictions. Bottom line is that having a well thought out personal philosophy serves a person well in figuring out where they stand in the larger picture.

I must say I don't see anything wrong with government providing a wellfare service.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I must say I don't see anything wrong with government providing a wellfare service.

Neither do I. There's a big difference between a government providing a welfare service and setting up a welfare state however.

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Originally posted by occrider Neither do I. There's a big difference between a government providing a welfare service and setting up a welfare state however.

Well, I'm not sure about a welfare state being such a bad thing either. It functions quite nicely in Sweden, for example.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, I'm not sure about a welfare state being such a bad thing either. It functions quite nicely in Sweden, for example.

Well, I don't really want to threadjack the thread into a discussion of welfare/social welfare states, however, I disagree with most distribution of wealth systems. I'm all for welfare to help those who are not in good times. But I'm very much against having the state support individuals who lack the motivation to support themselves. I'm an individualist ... I don't expect any free lunches for myself, and I'm not expecting anyone to demand a free lunch from me.

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Originally posted by occrider I disagree with most distribution of wealth systems. I'm all for welfare to help those who are not in good times. But I'm very much against having the state support individuals who lack the motivation to support themselves. I'm an individualist ... I don't expect any free lunches for myself, and I'm not expecting anyone to demand a free lunch from me.

The argument against that would be that if the playing field were equal and the wealth was equally distributed their wouldn't be individuals that lack the motivation to support themselves. It's the lack of oppurtunity and unfair situation to start with that makes people lose the morivation.

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DJ Tiesto - Battleship Grey (Miro remix)
Tilt - Invisible (Tilt's human mix)

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Originally posted by dj adagnitio The argument against that would be that if the playing field were equal and the wealth was equally distributed their wouldn't be individuals that lack the motivation to support themselves. It's the lack of oppurtunity and unfair situation to start with that makes people lose the morivation.

Do you have any siblings? If you do, are they EXACTLY like you? Same drive, motivation, passion, etc.? Those fuck-ups in high school who didn't study, didn't work, didn't care ... you think they would have the same motivation as a smart kid who knows what he/she wants and works to get it? Did those fuckups have missed opportunities somehow someway"? There are plenty of people who making something of themselves from nothing and do it through their own blood, sweat, and tears. For the mass majority of people who claim that they are in the position they are in because of the "system" they are denying themselves personal responsibility and personal accountability. The system is not designed to gauruntee your path to success and excellence. It is there to provide you with the opportunities to capitalize on so that you can make something of yourself. Does the system ever actually fuck up and not present people with the necessary opportunities they need? Yes, and that's why I'm not completely against welfare.

Life's not fair ... depending upon your luck, you can be born rich and have everything or be born poor and have nothing. You can be born beautiful or you can be born ugly. If you're born ugly are you going to resent all the beautiful people and demand that they give you some of their looks? No of course not, you make do with what you have and you use your other skills to surpass them in life.

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Last edited by occrider on Nov-05-2003 at 18:37

I do. What is the point your trying to make?

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If anyone can get me the following records please contact me:

DJ Tiesto - Battleship Grey (Miro remix)
Tilt - Invisible (Tilt's human mix)