Yep, just like knives don't stab people, and SUV's don't run people down. It takes a human actor.

BTW, I shot my first Glock 17 today. What a beautiful firearm. If there are any Austrians around this forum, my greatest thanks to you.

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Interesting topic, I was wondering when this might come up. I'm actually 50/50 on this one, I admittedly don't have good knowledge with regards to the statistics, all I know is that the US apparently has a much higher per-capita gun crime rate than most other western nations, regardless of gun ownership levels.

I live in a country with strict gun control, interestingly enough brought in by a conservative government, as opposed to the US where your major conservative party is a major advocate of gun ownership. Hopefully I'll be able to form an opinion sooner rather than later and join the fun.

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With regards to the first statement and Rosie O'Donnell and my thoughts.

First, Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Even more elaborate: Guns don't kill people, bullets do(unless you're being beaten to death with a gun.
so therefore, Spoons didn't make Rosie O'donnel fat, it was either the food in the spoon, or Big Fat Rosie herself who made Rosie fat.

In any event, gun manufacturers don't kill people and Michael Moore is still an idiot. Case closed.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka First, Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

god i hate that quote.....overused

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quote:

Originally posted by Shakka First, Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

with the help of guns....

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew with the help of guns....

and bullets....

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quote:

Originally posted by dukes and bullets....

And fucked up heads.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew with the help of guns....

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka and bullets....

quote:

Originally posted by Dukes And fucked up heads.

so either we start with "stupidity control", which means that if you are a freak, we kill you. Or we start controll on bullets, which would give as very much work to do and many new jobs... or we have gun control

I gotta admit, my knowledge on this topic isin't very good. Here in Kansas our Repub. controlled Congress is attempting to pass a concealed weapons law for gun carriers, much like that which was recently passed in Missouri (against the majority vote of the Missouri citizens, I might add).

I've seen a few stats. for both sides of the issue, but the one that I have some questions on are the stats that indicate crimes decreasing for states with concealed carry laws. Are these directly related statistically (decrease in crime with concealed carry laws)? Have they not ruled out other possibilities that may factor in the decrease in crime rates for these states? Have all states with concealed carry laws demonstrated a decrease in crime rates? And if so, are they significantly different statistically from those states with no concealed carry laws who've also seen a decrease in crime rates?

Anyone know?

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quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew or we have gun control

Oh, cool! I love gun control threads. This site has some great images: http://www.a-human-right.com

As to the concealed carry (CCW) statistics, in the 1980's when the first large swath of CCW laws were passed, there was a direct correlation between the passage of laws and the drop in crime. National crime rates had stayed unchanged, and in states that passed CCW laws, crime dropped.

From 1990 to 2003, it's harder to gauge, because crime across the entire US dropped at a steady rate - in both states that had and didn't have concealed carry. But in all cases, the big fear of those against the laws never materialized: In states that passed concealed carry laws, there was no corresponding increase in gun crimes.

The only places where crime (particularly murders) have greatly increased since 1990 are the places without such laws. Chicago is now the US "murder capital" - and has some of the most strict gun laws in the country. In Washington, D.C., the nation's other murder hellhole, handguns are banned.

So, I guess my point is, since crime rates have fallen or have stayed flat after passage of such laws - even if all the rates across the country didn't change at all but stayed flat - why not allow people to arm themselves? They feel safer, can defend themselves should the need arise, and there has been no increase in violence because of the laws. Actually, studies have shown that people who carry a concealed weapon are actually far more likely to follow the law, because if they're caught breaking it with a weapon on their possession, penalties are stiffer.

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Last edited by imokruok on Mar-19-2004 at 16:46

I'm for increased gun control for the stupid and less gun control for the normals. I don't understand why people would be opposed to that. Furthermore, I think that gun ownership should entail greater responsiblity and punishment for failing to abide by that responsibility. For example, maximum fines/jail sentences imposed upon reckless gun dealers, fines/jail sentences for citizens who are negligent with their possession of fire arms, etc.

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