I've noticed that most of the people who post here on a regular bases are pro-Israeli extremists. My question is for thoses of you who are not citizens, why do you care so much about Israel?

I don't want to turned this into an anti-Semite thread, but I'm curious is it because you're Jewish that you feel you need to defend Israel? Do you realize that Israel is a country not a religion? I was raised as a Roman Catholic, but I wasn't taught to dote on Italy's every move. If Italy got into conflict with another country, I wouldn't rush to their defense. I'd view it as a political conflict between the parties involved, not as an attack on my religion.

My faith doesn't depend on the existence of any particular Catholic country. I get the impression from many posters that if Israel ceased to exist, it would some how strike a fatal blow to Judaism. Judaism has been around thousands of years before the creation of Israel and is a viable religion regardless of whether it has its own state. Basing a nation on religion seems like a very odd and backwards idea that doesn't have a place in the modern world. It has generated hatred where it hasn't existed before and has highlighted the differences in people. I believe religion is a private matter that is best left out of politics (you might have guessed my opinion on this subject if you read my theocracy thread).

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Last edited by igottaknow on Mar-29-2004 at 21:16

Reason number one would be that Jews see themselves as a people (sharing culture, tradition, history and language) not only a religion. Therefore while you don't feel connected to Italy, a Jew living in Argentina does have a special relationship to Israel and its citizens.
Secondly the creation of Israel sets a milstone in the thousands of years of Jewish history. For the first time there's an official actual (not just religious, spiritual, metaphysical) homeland. That is not just a "nice thing" to have but a vital change in the status of Jewish people as there's finally a safe heaven after endless persecutions and genocides culminatng with the Holocaust. It's some kind of insurance in case problems arise. See it as your home after you moved out to sutudy/work outisde - Whenever you're lost, brankrupt, existentially endangered, Mum and Dad will wait for you to come back, with your bed done and dinner on table.
That's why today Israel is surely the least common denominator amongst almost all Jews (except the few fundamentalists that would have preferred if it was founded by the coming Messiah and nobody else).
Although it could be argued that Jews are confronted with hate *because* of Israel's existence (and its policies), they are also convinced that the situation would turn dramatically worse if Israel ceased to exist.

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which brings me to ponder an interesting question,

do you think Jews would be as tolerated as they are today were it not for the existance of Israel?

I have a feeling that a lot of the USA tolerance for Jews is because Jews control the holyland now and welcome Christians.

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I would consider myself fairly passionate not about Israel itself, but rather about issues which manifest themselves most clearly in discussions about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. For this reason, despite the fact that I have no Jewish heritage and categorically reject theistic Judaism, I frequently find myself defending Israel on this board against attacks which are, according to my rational faculties, seriously and dangerously myopic.

Specifically, I have concluded that the equivocation of suicide bombing and other tactics designed to kill innocent civilians and inflict terror to bring about change with military exercises designed to root out those (legitimate) terrorists represents a tremendous threat to the stability of peace throughout the world.

The legitimization of tactics such as those which are being used by organizations against Israel poses an escalating and self-perpetuating threat to the freedom of individuals around the world, as it necessitates the implementation of stringent security measures in order to reduce the likelihood of such attacks.

If we realize that there will always be discontent people in the world, then we must also realize that the only way to stop these people from resorting to terrorism is to prevent them from getting the impression that it might help their situation. Because of this, it is necessary to take somewhat extreme action in order to repress these terrorist activities in order to facilitate the greater good of preserving life, liberty, and human dignity throughout the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus which brings me to ponder an interesting question, do you think Jews would be as tolerated as they are today were it not for the existance of Israel? I have a feeling that a lot of the USA tolerance for Jews is because Jews control the holyland now and welcome Christians.

I feel it has had the opposite effect, generating more animosity against the Jewish, both here and abroad. While I don't claim to represent everyone, we don't like our government giving weapons and billions of dollars to a country involved in a controversial conflict. Like Spain we don't enjoy being targets of terrorist because we are getting involved in "your business". I'd also like to point out that the US support of Israel has less to do with we liking Israel or agreeing with its policies and more to do with our governments desire for a strategic partner in the oil rich region. I don't even understand the notion that Jews would be more persecuted in the USA if Israel didn't exist. I like to hear you try to develop that idea.

Now let me ask you a question. What difference would the existence of Israel have had if it existed during WWII? Are you trying to say that if there was a Jewish state that there wouldn't be any Jew in Europe. Let's even say that you could fit all the Jews in Israel, what would have prevent Germany from Invading it and setting up concentration camps there? I think it’s a really weak argument to equate a Jewish state with security. Especially since they are killed on a regular bases over the past 50 years in terrorist attacks.

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Last edited by igottaknow on Mar-29-2004 at 22:00

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow I've noticed that most of the people who post here on a regular bases are pro-Israeli extremists.

Stopped reading right there. Try wording your question as less of an ad hominem (i.e. without words like "extremist") and you may get better answers.

a) Most Israeli supporters here are moderates.
b) Anyone who disagrees with your position is not necessarily an extremist.
c) There are proportionally just as many Palestine supporters as Israel here.
d) The "passion" about the middle east in this forum is proportional to the number of utterly stupid threads created on the topic. Look around and you'll see that anti-American threads have been flamed just as much by non-Americans.
e) You've been posting here for what, 3 days? Don't pretend that you know all of us and our political viewpoints in full.

Man, I really don't like what you post in this forum. Very, very arrogant person you are when it comes to politics.

I'm not Jewish. The most I can say is that my family is, so I hear about this issue more often than some. I, however, am a full-blown atheist, and support Israel based on logic, not personal ties.

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quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter If we realize that there will always be discontent people in the world, then we must also realize that the only way to stop these people from resorting to terrorism is to prevent them from getting the impression that it might help their situation.

I wholeheartedly agree.

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow What difference would the existence of Israel have had if it existed during WWII? Are you trying to say that if there was a Jewish state that there wouldn't be any Jew in Europe. Let's even say that you could fit all the Jews in Israel, what would have prevent Germany from Invading it and setting up concentration camps there? I think it’s a really weak argument to equate a Jewish state with security. Especially since they are killed on a regular bases over the past 50 years in terrorist attacks.

Asking such things will leave you no where. You cannot step in the past and examine the mind of Hitler, nor of the people who had lived through the war in order to understand a "what if" situation. It's too easy to create an argument for both sides, and you will never find a distinct resolve to your question, because you simply don't know.

Perhaps had Israel existed, Germany might not have posessed such a great hatred towards Jews, because they would not have been in contact with them on a day to day basis. Maybe they would have lashed out on a different religion/ethnicity. Or maybe regardless they would have gone and attacked Jews in Israel, taking out many more countries as they go. Or maybe since the Jews would all have been in one particular place, they could have created an army and fended off the Germans.

There are multiple situations that could have occured, but we shall never know. We all have different opinions on this matter, so we will see tons of different outcomes that "could have been".

Haven't you ever been told not to ask "what if?"?

It's like asking "what if" Gore had been president during the time of Sept. 11th, would things have been different? You could come up with millions of analysis' and conclusions, but none would be concrete, because you simply don't know nor will you ever know.

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quote:

Judaism has been around thousands of years before the creation of Israel and is a viable religion regardless of whether it has its own state

Yes, and in that time, they have been persecuted throughout, including having 6 million of them gased to death in Nazi concentration camps (plus God knows how many others in the USSR) and generally being forced to live in ghettos in Europe. I think I would want somewhere that I could feel safe and at home in if that were me (and if I were Jewish, that place would be America and nowhere near Israel! )

quote:

Originally posted by anuneventrade I wholeheartedly agree. Asking such things will leave you no where. You cannot step in the past and examine the mind of Hitler, nor of the people who had lived through the war in order to understand a "what if" situation. It's too easy to create an argument for both sides, and you will never find a distinct resolve to your question, because you simply don't know. Perhaps had Israel existed, Germany might not have posessed such a great hatred towards Jews, because they would not have been in contact with them on a day to day basis. Maybe they would have lashed out on a different religion/ethnicity. Or maybe regardless they would have gone and attacked Jews in Israel, taking out many more countries as they go. Or maybe since the Jews would all have been in one particular place, they could have created an army and fended off the Germans. There are multiple situations that could have occured, but we shall never know. We all have different opinions on this matter, so we will see tons of different outcomes that "could have been". Haven't you ever been told not to ask "what if?"? It's like asking "what if" Gore had been president during the time of Sept. 11th, would things have been different? You could come up with millions of analysis' and conclusions, but none would be concrete, because you simply don't know nor will you ever know.

Precisely. And I, for my part, am convinced that events during WW2 would have turned completely different had Israel existed (then again, it could have hardly been worse?).

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quote:

Originally posted by anuneventrade Asking such things will leave you no where. You cannot step in the past and examine the mind of Hitler, nor of the people who had lived through the war in order to understand a "what if" situation.

I posed the question in resopnse to:

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant ...there's finally a safe heaven after endless persecutions and genocides culminatng with the Holocaust. It's some kind of insurance in case problems arise. ...they are also convinced that the situation would turn dramatically worse if Israel ceased to exist.

I'm just putting forth the argument that the existence of Israel doesn't provide Jewish people more security especially abroad, now or in the past. If countries want to persecute their citizens they'll do so whether or not another country exists or not. For example do you think the Kurds would be less persecuted in Turkey if a Kurdish state existed somewhere in the world? The pro-Israel posters here are staunch supports of a national sovereignty and use it to defends Israel's right to do what it wants with in its territories. However, sovereignty is double-edged sword because it allows for the right countries to persecute ethnic/religious sects with impunity.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Yes, and in that time, they have been persecuted throughout, including having 6 million of them gased to death in Nazi concentration camps (plus God knows how many others in the USSR) and generally being forced to live in ghettos in Europe. I think I would want somewhere that I could feel safe and at home in if that were me (and if I were Jewish, that place would be America and nowhere near Israel! )

I get the whole Holocaust thing, but would you really feel more "safe" living in Israel than Europe or for that matter any other place in the world?

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Last edited by igottaknow on Mar-29-2004 at 22:50

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow The pro-Israel posters here are staunch supports of a national sovereignty and use it to defends Israel's right to do what it wants with in its territories.

The boys are going to have a field day with you for that one.

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quote:

Originally posted by anuneventrade The boys are going to have a field day with you for that one.

I think Aaron doesn't like me any more. Hey, don't hate me; I'm just not bashful about voicing my opinions and pushing back on others to explain their views. I would never have brought this topic up if there weren’t so many Israel/Palestinian threads here. I'd be more than happy to discuss the ramifications of the end of the cold war and the resulting new world order, but I don't think most would reply.

I agree we've gone to defcon 1.

*jumps in my fox hole and prepares for war

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