From http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz...1/04/2003086356

Now I don't profess to be a genius but the judge who made this ruling in Brazil must be the biggest idiot in his (rationale), these were his words in regards to the new U.S. visa policy "I consider the act itself absolutely brutal, an attack on human rights, a violation of human dignity, xenophobic and as bad as the worst horrors sponsored by the Nazis," Judge Julier Sebastiao wrote of the US measures, in his decision ordering Brazilian authorities to fingerprint and photograph all US visitors. What is ironic is that he ordered the same brutal, xenophobic, Nazi, inhumane and undignified policy to be put in place by Brazil for U.S. tourists. Anyone see the ironic stupidity. Scary that this is a sitting judge who attacks such a policy and then institutes one himself, how genius Its not so much the ruling he made but to attack the U.S. policy and then to initiate the same policy seems like the pot calling the kettle black.

For its part the State Department has stated that it is the sovereign right of Brazil to implement their own policies for foreign visitors, and the U.S. has no plans to discuss the matter with Brazil.

P.S. why should the "evil" USA be too concerned about foreigners who stop visiting after all according to many of them we have a police state, right. Besides why come to such an undemocratic, bullying, tyranical nation that violates the rights of its citizens I'm in such fear daring to speak about my oppressive government My point for mentioning this is note to those who don't like the visa policy, don't come to America its the easiest solution and that's the fact of the matter. People don't like the U.S. telling them how to run their societies then don't tell us how to protect ourselves from those who would love nothing else than to cause another attack at all cost. One can never be unweary against evil. If another attack occurs the first to say I told you so would be the same critics now babbling on about violation of rights because it takes an extra few minutes at the already stressful airports.

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Last edited by NYCTrancefan on Jan-05-2004 at 19:17

I do think the US visa policy to Brazil is quiet stupid.

But I think Brazil's reply to Brazil is even stupider. Brazil has no real terrorist threat from the USA, all they are doing by imposing such restrictions on Americans is shooting their tourist industry, and hence their whole economy in the foot.


These policies are sure to hav huge economic fallout for Brazil, a nation which can't and shouldn't endure many economic fallouts at this time, all in all this policy is plan dumb.

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I do think the US visa policy to Brazil is quiet stupid. But I think Brazil's reply to Brazil is even stupider. Brazil has no real terrorist threat from the USA, all they are doing by imposing such restrictions on Americans is shooting their tourist industry, and hence their whole economy in the foot.

Well, I don't think that the US has any immediate threat from Brazil either. Besides, the people who are excluded from this law are the citizens from the EU countries, and I believe that all the 11.9. pilots were citizens of US or one of the EU members. Anyway, it's kinda funny what they did.

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Every nation certainly has the right to implement these policies if they feel so against U.S. citizens travelling abroad. I guess it comes down to the idea of "put up or shut up" If I go to Brazil, China, Turkey or wherever and they do this to me I have no problem as long as it is a secured policy. I have no choice but to follow it to enter the country if I desire to. My beef was with the usual complaints of Bush being Hitler, racist, xenophobic, blablabla by the usual suspects, but everyone has their opinion. Let's not forget that the terrorists utilized the nice free advantages of access to America when they came here, no more I say.

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actually now that I saw an article on it (mind you from BBC world) it doesn't seem as bad as I though. The check takes about 15 sec, and is done at the port of entery (not in the application for visa as I had intitially thought)

They are basically fingerprinting and taking pics of everyone on a visa.... so this goes for everyone except US citizens.

The only problem I have with this policy is just that.. the exception. It seems completely pointless to have this new secure net to verify the person is who he says he is if you exclude US citizens from the same check when they leave and re-enter their country.

Any dumb idiot will just tell you they'll start coming in with forged US passports, or greencards.

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Its called Reciprocity... I learned it in International Law... he isn't stupid... he is playing politics like any good Latin American in any form of Government...

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quote:

Originally posted by NYGblue Its called Reciprocity... I learned it in International Law... he isn't stupid... he is playing politics like any good Latin American in any form of Government...

I think you missed my point, I stated that it wasn't the policy, Brazil can ban all Americans from coming to Copocabana, Ipanema, Guanabara and Leblon for all I care, my point was if the policy on the part of the U.S. is so repulsive then why subject others to such policies that you lay claim to being so draconian according to this particular judge's ruling for application of the polaroid and fingerprint policy. Think about it, his basis for application looks like crap, instead he should say this is reciprocal and get it over with. Besides some people in Brazil are laughing at it, all those American (terrorists) oops tourists coming down there to destroy Brazil, That is some bad politics on that judge's part because I can guarantee you that far more Americans visit Brazil than the other way around after all they have the sunshine right there already, its not like America needs Brazilian visitors to maintain or strenghten the South Florida economy. Oh well like I said earlier to each their own,

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quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan I think you missed my point, I stated that it wasn't the policy, Brazil can ban all Americans from coming to Copocabana, Ipanema, Guanabara and Leblon for all I care, my point was if the policy on the part of the U.S. is so repulsive then why subject others to such policies that you lay claim to being so draconian according to this particular judge's ruling for application of the polaroid and fingerprint policy. Think about it, his basis for application looks like crap, instead he should say this is reciprocal and get it over with. Besides some people in Brazil are laughing at it, all those American (terrorists) oops tourists coming down there to destroy Brazil, That is some bad politics on that judge's part because I can guarantee you that far more Americans visit Brazil than the other way around after all they have the sunshine right there already, its not like America needs Brazilian visitors to maintain the South Florida economy. Oh well like I said earlier to each their own,

Naw I got your point... its still politics... nothing more, nothing less... rhetoric so to speak... what you say is completely right and logical... but politics is never logical.

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quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan I think you missed my point, I stated that it wasn't the policy, Brazil can ban all Americans from coming to Copocabana, Ipanema, Guanabara and Leblon for all I care, my point was if the policy on the part of the U.S. is so repulsive then why subject others to such policies that you lay claim to being so draconian according to this particular judge's ruling for application of the polaroid and fingerprint policy. Think about it, his basis for application looks like crap, instead he should say this is reciprocal and get it over with. Besides some people in Brazil are laughing at it, all those American (terrorists) oops tourists coming down there to destroy Brazil, That is some bad politics on that judge's part because I can guarantee you that far more Americans visit Brazil than the other way around after all they have the sunshine right there already, its not like America needs Brazilian visitors to maintain or strenghten the South Florida economy. Oh well like I said earlier to each their own,

You reasoning may be correct, but your attitude (and the US's attitude) is completely incorrect. Would you think terrorists are coming to the US using a palestinian, pakistani, afghan etc passport?
Of course not, they use the free travel passports (europe, etc).

This is an attack on civil rights as far as i'm concerned. I'm not affected by it, living in a EU country, but if i was, i would be very pissed off.

Anyway, we have this thing around here, it is called "National Identity Card". It has your complete name, parents name, fingerprint, marital status, date and place of birth, residence and height, and your signature, w/ a picture and a unique number. You are obligated to carry it around and show it to police officers when they request it.
When the card is made, all of your elements are incorporated in a government database, except the fingeprint.
It is a much safer, fast and complete way to identify yourself when requested. It is recognized internationally and endorsed by the European Union. It is much better than using any other kind of ID, or getting your picture and fingerprint taken when you visit a foreign country.

quote:

Originally posted by borron Anyway, we have this thing around here, it is called "National Identity Card". It has your complete name, parents name, fingerprint, marital status, date and place of birth, residence and height, and your signature, w/ a picture and a unique number. You are obligated to carry it around and show it to police officers when they request it. When the card is made, all of your elements are incorporated in a government database, except the fingeprint. It is a much safer, fast and complete way to identify yourself when requested. It is recognized internationally and endorsed by the European Union. It is much better than using any other kind of ID, or getting your picture and fingerprint taken when you visit a foreign country.

Well, we already require this thing called a passport. And if we're adding someone's fingerprint to the file when they come through immigration, it's already a more complete record than the national identity card. Plus, we're getting a current picture too.

As for the US, we will probably have a national ID card someday, but we don't have the same uses for it as other nations. You don't have to produce an ID to a police officer on the spot. They need to accuse you of something. And most transactions with the federal government are done with our "social security" number, which facilitates national tracking.

The first articles are showing up on the web from foreigners who had to go through the system, and reporters who interviewed them. The 15-second process was actually far easier than most people thought. I think a lot of people had the impression that they would be sat down in a room, and made to put their hand on an ink pad or something. Plus, the introductory program that was operating at one airport has already caught 21 people.

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The passport is always required, regardless of which nation you come from and to which you are travelling (except between EU countries).

Anyway, i'm not saying the system is innefective or anything, nor i'm saying that the data will be used "to spy on us", but i'm against it as a principle.

BTW, Brazil's response was quite courageus and well done. There's an irony here, don't you people think that brazilian authorities want to caught american criminals, they just want to piss you off. And it seems they've accomplished that.

I just mentioned the NI card because i've read around that most americans are against it. Is this true?

Oh, and when i said that of the police, OF COURSE you are not obligated to show them, unless you're accused of something, or in a traffic accident or something like that. Do you think the police wanders around asking people for their NI cards?

Last edited by borron on Jan-06-2004 at 21:42

everytime I go through american immigration, the idiots staffing the area interpret the rules a different way. with such an ineffective procedure in place the chances of something as simple and publicised as fingerprinting on arrival is not going to stop a single serious terrorist threat. and of course terrorists only discuss their plans when queueing for the toilet on board the planes. All of this is hype to keep people afraid without doing anything to stop real terrorism.