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| quote: | Originally posted by speedracer_mec
I really dont understand why you are trying to label Jesus Christ's beliefs with traditional values. Believing in traditional values don't necessarily mean people are religious zealots..... No one said they align with Jesus teachings exactly. |
But why shouldn't they? Wouldn't the Christian Right be best served by doing exactly what they profess - being Christians?
I never stated that religious zealotry is equivalent to traditional values, and if you think I implied it then you misunderstood me. What I am trying to understand is what exactly are these traditional values that the Democrats are seemingly missing from their "values" textbook, but are so prevalent among Conservative Christians.
| quote: | | As long as Democrats continue to label those who believe in traditional values,.... the need for no more taxes or that happen to go to a more conservative church on Sunday as some kind of de-evolved version of the species they will never win another national election..... |
That is wholly irrelevant to my question at hand. We can expand further on the political implications later down the road when we get there, but right now I think it's more pertinent to examine these "traditional values" a little closer, and who exactly lines up with them better in terms of Christianity.
| quote: | | You forget that Bush,..... while victorious was probably the weakest incumbent President to ever get re-elected.... The people that voted for him overlooked his mistakes for a reason. ....The did not vote for him out of some glazed-eye religous motiviation .... |
Hmmm, so the high voter evangelical turnout for Bush, the exit polls which clearly demonstrated that the highest issue on the voting block agenda was "moral values", was not because of religious motivation?
Please try not to blow too much smoke up my ass.
| quote: | | They did it because they recognized Kerry's associations and support on many different levels with the the Hollywood elite,--- (Michael Moron, Move-On (Soros/Lewis) and America Coming Together(Soros/Lewis)---) as a direct attack on the traditional American way of life. |
More unsupported bullshit rhetoric, and again is entirely irrelevant to my question and points. While it's undeniable that the effective labelling by the Conservatives on Kerry had some kind of effect on voters, there is no means possible to see this as a measurable effect, nor would it be prudent to make such sweeping generalizations as a result. Can you please dispense with the talking points rhetoric just for once?
| quote: | | All the Democrats needed was to show that they were not the extreme left party of Ted Kennedy, Michael MORON, George Soros/Peter Lewis etc. They need to promote candidates for national office more like Evan Bayh and Tom Vilsack. Bayh would have trounced Bush like a Bichon Frise in the ring with a Pit Bull...So I'd say believing in traditional values doesn't equate to believing in the story of turning a crumb of bread into a feast. Maybe the overall broader issue...of being a moderate who believe in moral values that Democrats are afraid to take their stance on.. ..... |
Irrelevant to the discussion of Jesus and traditional values. You are dodging the question.
| quote: | Another example to look at.....ummm
The Senate race between Ken Salazar and Pete Coors in Colorado illustrates this perfectly. Salazar is by many measures the more conservative candidate. Coors opposes the Death Penalty and a woman's right to choose. Salazar is pro-choice and pro-death penalty. Some would say that a more conservative candidate won in Colorado..... |
Others would say that Colorado is moving quite swiftly into the Blue column, and there's plenty of evidence to support that.
Again, irrelevant and sidestepping, but I'm curious, how is Salazar being pro-choice considered more conservative?
| quote: | | Since the big money behing national DNC candidates is put up by extreme-left groups, I have little hope for more moderate Democrats. My fear is that the DNC of Nancy Pelosi and Terry McAuliffe will continue to nose-dive into a marginal political role over the next few election cycles. Now their is talk that Howard Dean may take McAuliffe's place. IMHO a disasterous move for Democrats and dream come true for the GOP. |
Need I say it again? You mind keeping this discussion more centered towards the topic at hand?
| quote: | | As far as feeding the poor well, Government run subsidization of the poor rarely does little to actually help people. Privately run charities (as well as individual acts of kindness) are far more effective at actually helping people.... So I don't support paying bureaucrats to run a system that's rife with corruption. ..I do support groups that help the poor....... |
Christ, FINALLY! How freakin' long did it take you to finally discuss the issue here, Speed? Man, you could have easily dispensed with everything above and cut right to the chase here. My God, are you running for office or something? Geez.
Okay, first, what is your evidence to support the assertion that privately run charities are more effective than government run programs?
Second, and this is just the basis of rationale, my central argument stems from the fact that we have a President who wants to appoint pro-life judges, and wants to create a federal law banning gay marriage, which is exactly what the Christian Right wants. Yet we hear so very little from the Christian Right about government involvement with other Christian values such as feeding and helping the poor, getting people out of poverty, engagement in foreign countries involved with genocide such as Darfur and the Congo, and so forth.
So why does the Christian Right deem it necessary to have government engagement in one set of Christian values, but not the other? How can allowing the government to do nothing about the 4 million people in poverty over the last 4 years be considered Christian? What's worse, I heard on NPR this morning about some of the subjects on the Christian Right's agenda for Bush in the next 4 years - among them was permanent tax cuts.
How does tax cuts play in the teachings of Jesus? In fact, doesn't Jesus say something to the effect of the opposite? And what's more, we have seen how these tax cuts have put the burden on the middle class, as evidenced by the GAO report last July - how is this considered Christian?
| quote: | | But my choice to help the poor is just that..... My choice. If someone wants to be a selfish bastard who keeps all his money and doesn't want to help the poor, I shouldn't be able to force his money from him. Nor should anyone force me to support any particular charity over any other or even prevent me from donating what I want to any given charity.... |
Well I don't believe anyone here, including yourself, ever claimed you to be a dutiful Christian. These are the people I am addressing, and everything you just stated here is most certainly not in line with Jesus' teachings, is it?
| quote: | | The President and other GOP landslides are not 100% the result of the votes of "religous zealots".... As long as liberals keep thinking that, they will keep right on losing elections to votes cast by average Americans that want our way of life to continue to include things like the 2nd Amendment (just one example). THe belief in moral/traditional values doesn't exactly stem from Jesus Christ linearly.No need to try to correlate his exact actions with todays. Its his broader message that should be looked at. This election shouldnt be blamed on the bible huggers if thats what you are trying to say. Traditional American values don't need to have anything to do with religion |
Off the soapbox with you, Speed. If you cannot answer these questions as a Christian or in a Christian perspective, and feel compelled to drone on and on about the doom of the Democrats and so forth, you are really adding nothing at all to this thread. I am interested from a Christian perspective, not a generalized conservative perspective as you are doing. I hope you can understand better what I am asking now.
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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...
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