i would say that the individual person has more freedom in Croatia than in America... Though, I don't think civil liberties there are as closely respected as they are here...

just my 2 cents worth of opinion.

>JM<

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Originally posted by JM i would say that the individual person has more freedom in Croatia than in America... Though, I don't think civil liberties there are as closely respected as they are here... just my 2 cents worth of opinion. >JM<

Right but what about Western Europe? Croatia is just getting over communism, civil war, and ethnic tensions.

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When you have the peaceful transfer of power in a country divided 51-48....I find that as a freedom loving country.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Okay so now I haven’t lived in USA, but do live in Canada atm and everyone tells me that it is pretty much the same all over North America, so I write this on the assumption that that is right (correct me if I am wrong). Americans tend to say that they live in THE country of freedom, yet I don’t find it that free. You do have better free speech rights than most of Europe (where hate speech is banned in many countries), you also have a greater ”right to own” etc. However, there are many freedoms that I enjoy in Europe that you don’t really have here. There are so many laws and restrictions on so many things that should be out of the government’s interest. Everyday I think of several things that I should have been able to do in Europe, but not aloud to do here. Of course, now when I am writing this I cannot think of too many, but one obvious example are your high schools. People there have no freedom at all, and treated like they were 7 years old rebels. Another example that comes to my mind is my other thread about school buses, that people would never let their children be on a public transport system cause “there are too many dangerous people out there”. Those kinds of things are also a big lack of freedom, as well as the right to marry whoever you want () etc. I am sure that someone that has lived in booth Europe (not all countries are like this though) and North America know what I am speaking about. Discuss

It is not a lack of freedom, it is common sense for child safety. Would you let your child on the same bus that a rapist or child molester would be on? Also high schools have to have limitations of freedom because of violence. I know in a few schools here they have to put metal detectors and armed guards on the roofs, kids arent allowed to carry backpacks because students have been known to carry guns or weapons and stab or shoot other kids. It is just a fact of life in our time. You have to give up certain freedoms to be safer. I don't really notice much loss of freedom that you suggest, but I have never been to Europe either so I have nothing to compare against.

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Originally posted by speedracer_mec When you have the peaceful transfer of power in a country divided 51-48....I find that as a freedom loving country.

That has nothing to do with Freedom. Nice try though.

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil It is not a lack of freedom, it is common sense for child safety. Would you let your child on the same bus that a rapist or child molester would be on? Also high schools have to have limitations of freedom because of violence. I know in a few schools here they have to put metal detectors and armed guards on the roofs, kids arent allowed to carry backpacks because students have been known to carry guns or weapons and stab or shoot other kids. It is just a fact of life in our time. You have to give up certain freedoms to be safer. I don't really notice much loss of freedom that you suggest, but I have never been to Europe either so I have nothing to compare against.

Well, this is pretty much what i mean. Since you for some reason (im not taking up the debate as to why here) have more criminals and so, you must also have a lot of laws and restrictions, which i who is not used to that, see as BIG restrictions to my freedom. and i would never say that the US or Canada is more free than europe, who many people in the US seems to imply.

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil It is not a lack of freedom, it is common sense for child safety. Would you let your child on the same bus that a rapist or child molester would be on? Also high schools have to have limitations of freedom because of violence. I know in a few schools here they have to put metal detectors and armed guards on the roofs, kids arent allowed to carry backpacks because students have been known to carry guns or weapons and stab or shoot other kids. It is just a fact of life in our time. You have to give up certain freedoms to be safer. I don't really notice much loss of freedom that you suggest, but I have never been to Europe either so I have nothing to compare against.

In Cleveland because the public schools are so poor they are talking about stopping the school bus services and just haveing kids take the RTA (public buses). Of course lots of people are complaining that it is not safe but as far as I know they are going to do it next year.

On a different note, I believe the argument for lossing freedoms to increase safty may be valid but the fact of the matter is that freedoms are being restricted. I have visted Europe a couple times (England, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and Italy) and in the brief stays I did not notice mich of a difference in freedoms. I feel that the examples that St_Andrew gave really relate to the social realities (and differences) more than freedom. While I don't here about European schools with shootings and metal detectors I bet that if those were big problems they might do some of the same things we do in the US to stop them. (I am not trying to get into why this is only a problem in the US).

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It might have been true in the past that America was more free than most places in the world, but no so much any more.

You can smoke pot in Amsterdam, you can't in the US. You can say anything you want in America, you can't in some places in Europe.

The details might be a little different but on the larger picture its pretty much all the same.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Well, this is pretty much what i mean. Since you for some reason (im not taking up the debate as to why here) have more criminals and so, you must also have a lot of laws and restrictions, which i who is not used to that, see as BIG restrictions to my freedom. and i would never say that the US or Canada is more free than europe, who many people in the US seems to imply.

This was never a contest of freedoms of the USA vs. Europe, and I don't know where that was implied. We are very proud of being a free country, hence why we have it in our slogan "land of the free", and I am very sure the millions of people who came from non free countries to ours to start a new life are proud of it too.

Of course we tout freedom, because a lot of people on this planet don't have any basic freedoms that you or I can enjoy such as reading a newspaper, having a job, saying what we want, protesting, etc. I think freedom is fine until it starts to endanger the lives of people, then it needs rules and laws.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Everyday I think of several things that I should have been able to do in Europe, but not aloud to do here. Of course, now when I am writing this I cannot think of too many, but one obvious example are your high schools. People there have no freedom at all, and treated like they were 7 years old rebels.

Specifically, what do you mean? Examples? I'm guessing that is probably quite dependent on the high-school. Public or private? Prep school? Military School? Demographics? What specific experiences are you referring to?

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Another example that comes to my mind is my other thread about school buses, that people would never let their children be on a public transport system cause “there are too many dangerous people out there”. Those kinds of things are also a big lack of freedom, as well as the right to marry whoever you want () etc.

Again, I can only surmise that this is a generalization based on some experience that you've had in Canada? I'm curious for some examples as I've never been to Canada(or Sweden for that matter), so I don't really have a basis for comparison. What is it that you've encountered that is so different from your European experience?

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil This was never a contest of freedoms of the USA vs. Europe, and I don't know where that was implied. We are very proud of being a free country, hence why we have it in our slogan "land of the free", and I am very sure the millions of people who came from non free countries to ours to start a new life are proud of it too.

not in this thread in particular, but in general i hear it often, esp on this forum...

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Of course we tout freedom, because a lot of people on this planet don't have any basic freedoms that you or I can enjoy such as reading a newspaper, having a job, saying what we want, protesting, etc. I think freedom is fine until it starts to endanger the lives of people, then it needs rules and laws.

we probably agree here, just never let the paranoia get too big... which i think it does here sometimes...