Like seeing your life flash before your eyes right before you die(perhaps right after you die ) in this context.

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Originally posted by kush paintings I know this is the political discussion room, but there really isn’t anywhere else I believe this would fit and I have a lot of respect for the crowd in here. I wish there were more threads about philosophy, as I get tired of reading politics so much on here.

When this forum was voted into existence, some of us, who cast the needed supporting votes, did so with the understanding that the new forum should encompass not only political, but also scientific, religious, and (more generally) any philosophical debate. Too bad that Swamper labelled it the political forum, because it does send the wrong message, I think.
I guess my point is: Don't hesitate to post your more philosophical issues. I'll read them.

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Originally posted by kush paintings So to hopefully get some more started I have this scenario/ question to ask. I am a huge fan of the movie Waking Life, and there is an interesting bit in there with Ethan Hawke and Julie Deeply. He is talking how in a dream, time seems not to exist, as you have the long, beautiful dreams that in reality last only 10 minutes or so. He goes on to talk about how some philosopher said he was looking forward to when he dies, but his brain is still active, for something around 7-15 minutes. Hawke’s theory is that while you’re in this state, you could be going over all past recollections, basically all that is left in your mind. In a sense you could almost be reliving you’re life through those memories. Julie Deeply responds that she sometimes feels like on old woman on her deathbed. I thought this was a pretty interesting theory, although I have had trouble finding scientific evidence and studies done on the matter. Opinions?

I've recently read a book on dream/sleep research, and it included a section on time in dreams. Basically, research indicate that dream time doesn't differ from real life time. What differs is that the dreamer can "skip" sections of his/her dream where there's no action going on, and can change the settings of the dream rapidly. So when you dream for ten minutes you only get ten minutes of awareness, even if the dream takes place in both medieval Europe and present day New Zealand.
So if the combined *experiences* of your life only add up to 10-15 minutes, then yeah, I guess that you could re-live them when you die.

The scene being discussed can be found here

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quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic When this forum was voted into existence, some of us, who cast the needed supporting votes, did so with the understanding that the new forum should encompass not only political, but also scientific, religious, and (more generally) any philosophical debate. Too bad that Swamper labelled it the political forum, because it does send the wrong message, I think. I guess my point is: Don't hesitate to post your more philosophical issues. I'll read them.

That would depend on how one interpets the forum title.
To me, the "/" would indicate a change in the subject line so as to read, "Political Discussion AND Debate" and not necessarily just, "Political Debates".

I enjoy seeing threads that aren't necessarily mind-numbing poli-tics here for sure.

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Last edited by Fir3start3r on May-03-2005 at 22:28

Kush:

If the concept being discussed by Jesse (Ethan's character in that scene) really interests you then i'd suggest you seek out the following two films:

Final Approach and After Life (Wandafuru raifu)

They may be difficult to find.

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your pearl casting hero

Yea every so often we have a good astronomy/physics thread which eventually transforms into a philosophical discussion. Basically I think any intellectual discussion has a home here.

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Retro ...

"I don't get it" I said, "what do you mean 'forever'? The physical body has its limits. The body dies, the brain dies. Brain dies, mind ceases. Isn't that the way it goes?".
"No it isn't. There's no time to tautologies. That's the difference between tautologies and dreams. Tautologies are instantaneous, everything is revealed at once. Eternity can be experienced. Once you set up a closed circle you just keep spinnin' round and round in there. That's the nature of tautologies. No interruptions like with dreams. It's like the encyclopedia wand."
"The encyclopedia wand?" I was evolving into an echo.
"The encyclopedia wand's a theoretical puzzle, like Zeno's paradox. The idea is to engrave the entire encyclopedia onto a single toothpick. Know how to do it?"
"You tell me."
"You take your information, your enxclopedia text, and you transpose it into numerics. You assign everything a two-digit number, periods and commas included. 00 is a blank, A is 01, B is 02, and so on. Then after you've lined them all up, you put a decimal point before the whole lot. So now you've got a very long sub-decimal fraction. 0.1783947609009....Next, you engrave a mark at exactely that point along the toothpick. If 0.5000's your exact middle on the toothpick, then 0.3333's go to be a third of the way from the tip. You follow?"
"Sure"
That's how you can fit the data of any length in a single point on a toothpick. Only theoretically, of course. No existin' technology can actually engrave so fine a point. But this should give you a perspective on what tautologies are like. Say time's the length of your toothpick. The amout of information you can pack into it doesn't have anything to do with the length. Make the fraction as long as you want. It'll be finite but pretty near eternal. Though if you make it a repeating decimal then it is eternal. You understand what that means? The problem's the software, no relation to the hardware. It could be a toothpick or a two hundred meter timber or the equator - doesn't matter. Your body dies, your consciousness passes away, but your thought is caught in the one tautological point an instant before, subdivin' for an eternity. Think about the koan: An arrow is stopped in flight. Well, the death of the body is the flight of the arrow. It's making a straight line for the brain. No dodgin' it, not for anyone. People have to die, the body has to fail. Time is hurlin' that arrow forward. And yet, like I was sayin'. thought goes on subdiving that time for ever and ever. The paradox becomes real. The arrow never hits."
"In other words," I said, "Immortality."



Haruki Murakami - Hard Boiled Wonderland And The End Of The World

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

That is probably one of the best response posts that I have ever recieved. Thank you for that. I have been thinking about that concept for a long time, but obviously never been able to put it so well. To me its always been a matter of time always has a beginning and end. In order to have any concept of time you must be able to have markers for start and end. However, with your "last dream" (let's call it) you could never see your own end. Your dream couldnt fade to balck or static or some nonsense like that. Just like TranceGiant said, the last dream is an arrow stuck in flight.

However, my thoughts don't simply stop at this concept. Perhaps the Puritains were never wrong with their heaven and hell concept. Although they felt Heaven and Hell were these spheres that grouped together people to live in agony or bliss for all of eternity based on how they lived their lives, this last dream concept can take place of these spheres without changing much of the original idea.

When all that is left in your last dream is the memories you have made in your life and the constructions you can create from those memories, it would be safe to say that this last dream would reflect how you led your life. If you led a life of regret, your last dream would be filled with regret, thus becomming an eternal hell. If you led a fullfilling life on the other hand, your last dream would be eternal bliss. I guess this concept is even more freightening than the religious one, because you are no longer the victim of fate or the judgement of a set of rules, but only of yourself. Life no longer becomes an obligation to lead life by rules that have been written by others, but instead it becomes an obligation to one's self. In the end , whether you will experience eternal bliss or misery is up to you and no one else. To me, that is the ultimate freedom.

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Lost Souls

So it's not possible to have bliss and some regret?

What about an evolution of consciousness into a high-plane?
Do we just end when our corporeal form ends?

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Well, this being a philosophical thread I doubt he'd make the mistake of stating absolutes ^^. Just dont turn this into a thread on Ontology hehe.

Not to wax TOO philosophical, but this has me bothered to the point where I plan to kill myself via drinking, or at least get hammered every night in case I die in my sleep. Im pretty sure I dont dream when Im drunk because I cant get into the "state of mind" that is required for it.

As for Heaven and Hell... my religious perspective would not be that of fire and brimstone versus whipcream bikinis and crotchless chaps (and youre the only man and its all women) or something...

its that Feeling of being connected to God/something greater. We cant experience it fully on this realm. On death, if you are found wanting, the Group Consciousness rejects you (like when The Borg rejects you) you dont get assimilated. You know how bad it would suck being a disconnected...THING...in eternity? *shudder*

I look on it philosophically with peace/regret (if thats the analogy you want to use) being the contention you have within yourself (so definitely agree on that one) but I think the context of feeling connected, having existed in enough places deeply enough (both physical and spiritual), is an important aspect towards looking at final demise. I get this feeling a lot as I hop on my motorcycle hehe. "would I regret dying right now?" not because I feel ive lived a wasted life, one empty and shallow, but I feel like my life hasnt expanded to fit my experiences yet, that im charging through it and the dimension of time hasnt fully enveloped me.

It all sounds a bit odd probably, but...whaddya gonna do?

I watched this with me ex she pulled me along. The only person who to me made sence in the film was the guy who talked about us basicly being "machines", products, reactions (he had a blue gear in overlayed onto his belly at one point, I watched this years ago but still remeber thinking "he thinks just like me"). Until then I thought nice talk nice pictures nice talk....

Anyway my thoughts are.

To me the human body is just a product of the inputs.

If you fry the part of your brain that can read you can still write (you can break very specific things).

I belive that to be possible with any part of your brain and so I belive that our brains are "machines". If it is breakable then it is a product of logic there is no soul involved (though I accept the possibilty this is the way I think just now).

To me all the subjective words in the world with respect to the way truely are or think mean nothing it is just a process.

When we die we start the transition into a non living (highly subjective term) thing. We do not cease to exist we just cease to function as a human, further we are at our begining not created we are mearly formed. Matter and energy and the interactions between these are the universe we are just a small little set of, in our terms complex, reactions.

Obviously when you wonder about in the real world you can't be thinking about these things like that of you'd kill yourself as you'd realise here is no point so we all just float along with the reactions.

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.